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Old 09-27-2012, 08:51   #121
muscogee
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
I don't know what you mean by weak logic. I may have come late to the annoying evangelizing party I sometimes see here, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have that kind of power. I don't argue for the existence of God, or the truth of the Bible -- I assume it.
That's not logical. Why not cut out the middle man and just assume you're God. There's as much evedince for one as there is for the other.

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I expect people not to believe or be interested in/sympathetic to the gospel -- it's our natural state. To be honest, what knocks me off my feet is when I meet someone who is a pedigreed Christian.
What do you mean by pedigreed Christian? If you mean someone who was raised Christian and knows the Scriptures quite well, they're many of them in this forum. Does it knock yok off your feet to know that anyone could know as much as you do and disagree with you? See any pride in that position?


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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
I wasn't trying to be prideful -- I was trying to be informative, using terms and concepts I assumed buzznRose would understand, if he is a Christian.
You talked down to him. You were condescending.

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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
I'm convinced of my convictions.
Whick you assume without proof. You're also porud of them and feel the need to advertise.


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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
If I'm not sure of what I'm saying, why say it at all? I've been around this forum just long enough that I assume we know I subscribe to Protestant doctrine, and within that, Calvinst sub-doctrine.
More pride and egotism. I doubt most here think about your doctrine at all.

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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
But if pressed, I'd say I don't think I have seen evidence of consistent classical Christianity in the comments of those who identify themselves as Christians. Most of the comments give evidence of some kind that they are 'corrupted' by a non-Christian belief, influence, or personal spin on things. There is such a thing as a pure, Biblical Theology -- and then there's Everything Else.
Pure, Biblical Theology as defined by you that you assume without evidence. Everyone else wrong, but you're not prideful.

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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
So anyway, I took buzz to task -- as I thought I had a right to do, as a fellow believer -- for his deconstructed Christian views
Do you see anything vain or condescending in that statement. I'm not sure where the Bible says, "Go ye therfore and condescend". This type of arragonce is one of the many things that make people hostile to religion.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:05   #122
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And what religion would that be? Certainly not Christianity or Judaism or even Islam.
You don't know much about history do ya. The culture that the Jewish religion was born out of was the Mesopotamian culture. Abraham (if he even really existed) was a Mesopotamian. They believed in multiple Gods and it wasn't uncommon for them to sacrifice virgins or babies. Abraham selected one god of their lot to listen to over all others and that later became Yaweh... Your God. And that God commanded Abraham to kill his own child... although he said "Just foolin" right at the end as a test of Abraham's faith. Historians believe that more so than just a legend about the strength of Abrahams faith... whoever wrote these stories was claiming an end to human sacrifice in the name of an God. It was one more step out of animal behavior for mankind. However, even the jews still believed in animal sacrifice in the temple. So, still barabaric... just not savage.


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What a fanciful hallucination. It's hilarious how some of the atheists here make up their own tenets for a particular religion.
Man, you're really stupid aren't ya? I said in the exact same post this is not what I believe. Just the only way I can imagine there being an afterlife. In other words I don't believe in Ghosts, and demons, and goblins, and wizardry like you religious folks. If there is an afterlife the only way I can imagine it is via just a different form of natural existence or perception.

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Old 09-27-2012, 09:54   #123
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
The Bible tells us 'by their fruits ye shall know them'.
Yeah it also says women were made from our rib.

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Blowing yourself up to murder innocent people is evil. Doing this in hopes of getting 72 virgins in Allah's bordello is also evil.
The crusades were also evil. The catholic ordeals were also evil. The Spanish inquisition was also evil. And the millions of people killed throughout the centuries for being witches, possessed, or in league with demons was also evil. All of this done in the name of YOUR God. Fruits indeed.

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The fact that the Left aids and abets this evil 'religion' tells us a lot about the Left.
The left of what?

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Of course, we shouldn't be too surprised; after all, the Left murdered 100 million innocent men, women and children in the 20th century in the name of atheistic communism, and many millions more in the name of mostly-atheistic National SOCIALISM.
No one here has proven that Atheism in and of itself is responsible for this. Believing in nothing is just that... it's a lack of belief. Atheism has no code, no dogma, no standard or mantra. Please illustrate what Atheistic BELIEFS or precepts on which this murder is based?

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If we realize that class-hatred and class-warfare, standard Marxist fare
Are you kidding me? There are more racists, screw the poor power hungry rich, and judgmental religious nuts on the right in America than on the left. You wanna talk about class warfare, the right specializes in it. I've been a conservative most of my life but it's mostly because they protect the 2nd amendment. But the party itself is spear headed by the worst people American has to offer. Bigoted power hungry holier than thou evangelical corporate raiders.

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I suppose you could say that people fight and kill more over religion than anything else.
They do. Not just yours... all of them. It's nonsense that gives man reason to murder one another. Over a being who's existence hasn't even a single shred of evidence.

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The Bible tells us that Satan has fooled many.
It also says you can rape a woman if you pay for her afterword. Classy book.

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The Bible tells us that sodomy is an abomination.
Yet my chick loves it. Not every night mind you... just on the weekends. The Bible also says not to eat shellfish. You ever had lobster? I don't think you'd give me an honest answer but have you ever had premarital sex? Have you ever been drunk? Got any tattoos?

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Modern epidemiology tells us that AIDS is rampant primarily in sodomist circles.
This is no longer true. It has spread like wildfire through Africa via heterosexual activity. And sodomists aren't just homosexuals. Like I said... I happen to know one personally.

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Tell us again which "childish views" we've outgrown?
That homosexuality is evil. It isn't. People who think so are backwards, stupid, and bigoted. It's that simple. The numbers of Christians and all religious denominations are shrinking in America. You can't deny this. We're waking up from man's childhood and leaving our bed time stories behind. In another 50 years this nation will only be about 50% religious. Of course as the number of people who remain deluded within religion shrink those numbers will be the most crazy and extremist like you. But eventually the religious will become a minority. And we Atheist promise that we will treat you with more compassion than you've treated us throughout the centuries. We won't burn any of you at the stake, or stretch you, or put you in the iron maiden.

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The study of psychology, psychiatry, sociology, biology, chemistry and many others'...should lead us to humble awe at what God hath wrought, rather than arrogant hubris about our supposed 'massive insight'.
No, they lead us to KNOW that for all these things to be... you just don't really need God. They just kinda happen on their own. And they also teach us that just because you believe in God with all your heart... doesn't make it true.

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The Bible tells us that pride goes before a fall.
Yet it also tells us Jesus got into a fight with a fig tree. Real tough guy.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:26   #124
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Man, you're really stupid aren't ya?
Speaking of stupid, progressives (you claim to have 'long been conservative', so maybe you're a Ronulan, but they're indistinguishable from regular Marxists when it comes to hatred for traditional America and its Christianity) have always been too stupid to understand that their undermining of more advanced human societies will restore more primitive, brutal social and political systems.

In Russia, libs (Bolsheviks) brought down a so-so government and installed a communist czar (Lenin, then Stalin) with a hyper-brutal corruption of feudalism (collectivism). In the Arab Spring, they brought back black-flag Muslim armies, the kind against which the Crusades were waged in an often flawed, but basically justifiable, self-defense military action. Worse, libs have treasonously brought these modern black-flag Muslim armies the streets of London, Sydney, Paris, New York, Dearborn, Michigan, etc. Today's total of deadly Muslim attacks just since 9/11, has now climbed to 19,660. Proud of yourself? Think you're so smart?

The Left has been marginalizing Christians and destroying Western national identities, while letting millions of Muslims immigrate, riot in our streets, and demand Islamic theocracy.

That's stupid.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:33   #125
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Speaking of stupid, progressives (you claim to have 'long been conservative', so maybe you're a Ronulan, but they're indistinguishable from regular Marxists when it comes to hatred for traditional America and its Christianity) have always been too stupid to understand that their undermining of more advanced human societies will restore more primitive, brutal social and political systems.

In Russia, libs (Bolsheviks) brought down a so-so government and installed a communist czar (Lenin, then Stalin) with a hyper-brutal corruption of feudalism (collectivism). In the Arab Spring, they brought back black-flag Muslim armies, the kind against which the Crusades were waged in an often flawed, but basically justifiable, self-defense military action. Worse, libs have treasonously brought these modern black-flag Muslim armies the streets of London, Sydney, Paris, New York, etc. Today's total of deadly Muslim attacks just since 9/11, has now climbed to 19,660. Proud of yourself? Think you're so smart?

The Left has been marginalizing Christians and destroying Western national identities, while letting millions of Muslims immigrate, riot in our streets, and demand Islamic theocracy.

That's stupid.
Soon man will shed his need for mythology and fairy tales. Won't stop us from killing one another I'm afraid, but at least we'll stop doing it in the name of invisible men in the sky. Mark my words... your religion as well as others are dying in this nation. I will always defend a person's right to believe what they wish so long as they don't try and push it on me or legislate it. But I am happy to see it fading into the background.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:49   #126
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And we Atheist promise that we will treat you with more compassion than you've treated us throughout the centuries. We won't burn any of you at the stake, or stretch you, or put you in the iron maiden.
Not all Christians have always been 100% saintly. But their record is far better (the inquisition killed a few thousand) than that of atheists (think of the millions murdered in Stalin's gulags, Mao's Great Leap, Fidel's firing squads or Pol Pot's Killing Fields) or Muslims (think of 280 million murdered in atrocities such as the Armenian Genocide, the African slave trade run by Muslims, and countless other massacres), as would be expected of followers of the Prince of Peace (Christians built how many universities and hospitals?) versus followers of an AntiChrist or a False Prophet.

Is Obama more of an atheist or more of a Muslim?

Either way, he hates America, conservatives and Christians (sounds like you). So while Christian churches are being blown up and/or burnt on pretty much a daily basis, Obama is wasting millions of our tax dollars rebuilding overseas Islamic mosques and minarets.

O's State Department says this will "fight Islamic extremism".
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:01   #127
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Hope I don't break any forum rules for you Glock!9, but take a long read at www.stufffundieslike.com

Many, many folks have been where you have been...Myself included. PM me if you like.

I especially enjoy how the "Preecher" addresses his letter to 'bruthrun, sistren and reprobates'. I think reprobates is the only word he actually spelled correctly. I also couldn't help noticing that he has many "doctorate degrees".....those are honorary doctorates, I'm assuming.

As for the rest of this site, all I can say is, WOW!
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:07   #128
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Speaking of stupid, progressives (you claim to have 'long been conservative', so maybe you're a Ronulan, but they're indistinguishable from regular Marxists when it comes to hatred for traditional America and its Christianity) have always been too stupid to understand that their undermining of more advanced human societies will restore more primitive, brutal social and political systems.

In Russia, libs (Bolsheviks) brought down a so-so government and installed a communist czar (Lenin, then Stalin) with a hyper-brutal corruption of feudalism (collectivism). In the Arab Spring, they brought back black-flag Muslim armies, the kind against which the Crusades were waged in an often flawed, but basically justifiable, self-defense military action. Worse, libs have treasonously brought these modern black-flag Muslim armies the streets of London, Sydney, Paris, New York, Dearborn, Michigan, etc. Today's total of deadly Muslim attacks just since 9/11, has now climbed to 19,660. Proud of yourself? Think you're so smart?

The Left has been marginalizing Christians and destroying Western national identities, while letting millions of Muslims immigrate, riot in our streets, and demand Islamic theocracy.

That's stupid.
Who has been teaching you history?
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Old 09-27-2012, 13:40   #129
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Not all Christians have always been 100% saintly. But their record is far better (the inquisition killed a few thousand) than that of atheists
Untrue. Not a single person has ever been killed because of Atheist ideals. Now... perhaps there have been Atheists who were Anti-Christian or Anti-Muslim or what have you. But that has nothing to do with Atheism in and of itself. You simply don't understand Atheism enough to know what you're talking about. It's obvious you think it's some kind of belief system. It is not.

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(think of the millions murdered in Stalin's gulags, Mao's Great Leap, Fidel's firing squads or Pol Pot's Killing Fields) or Muslims (think of 280 million murdered in atrocities such as the Armenian Genocide, the African slave trade run by Muslims, and countless other massacres), as would be expected of followers of the Prince of Peace (Christians built how many universities and hospitals?) versus followers of an AntiChrist or a False Prophet.
Are you stating that all muslims are murderers and evil? Are you claiming that Christians are the only group that have established hospitals and universities?

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Is Obama more of an atheist or more of a Muslim?

Either way, he hates America,
How so?

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So while Christian churches are being blown up and/or burnt on pretty much a daily basis
Where, which churches?

You are deep in your own craziness. You're a conspiracy theorist aren't you?
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Old 09-27-2012, 17:51   #130
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Untrue. Not a single person has ever been killed because of Atheist ideals..

Are you stating that all muslims are murderers and evil? Are you claiming that Christians are the only group that have established hospitals and universities?

Where, which churches?
Soviet, Chinese and other communists have murdered countless Christians in the name of their state atheism. Try not to be a liar all your life.

Did I say all Muslims are murderers? No. So stop lying about what I said. The ideology of Islam, however, is evil, and has been responsible for an estimated 280 million murders of innocent people.

Where did I say that Christians were the only group that has established hospitals and universities? I didn't, therefore you have just lied again.

It would take too much of my valuable time to list all the churches burned by Muslims. But just a few include the Paul Lutheran Church of Mardan, Pakistan, which was burned down by Muslims 5 days ago, along with 2 pastor houses and a head-teacher's house. Muslims in just the last few years have burned probably hundreds of churches in such places as Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, the Philippines, Sudan, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Indonesia, and in the heart of Europe (Albanian Muslims burned at least one Serbian church in 2011). This is to say nothing of all the Christian girls kidnapped, raped and forced to marry their Muslim rapist, Christian converts stabbed and had acid thrown on them by Muslims in Norway, and Christian schoolgirls beheaded by Muslims in Indonesia.

If you want to see craziness, in addition to looking in a mirror, you could check out youtube's video's of Muslims stoning Christians in Dearborn, Michigan, this year. Thank God though, such Satanic craziness will not be allowed to go on endlessly (read the Bible).
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Old 09-27-2012, 18:37   #131
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What do you mean by pedigreed Christian? If you mean someone who was raised Christian and knows the Scriptures quite well, they're many of them in this forum. Does it knock yok off your feet to know that anyone could know as much as you do and disagree with you? See any pride in that position?
I meant regenerated. Not just on this forum, but anywhere. 40 years ago, more people were 'religious' (don't like the word) than not. These days, to run into a regenerated person is rare. The world has rapidly and broadly secularized in my lifetime. It rises to the level of phenomenon. Of course there are well informed people who disagree with me. Doesn't mean they share the same eternal life, which is what I was talking about. The underlying theme of this forum seems to be that many people have had exposure to 'Christian' influences or upbringing, but have walked away from it. Long ago, you could assume a Catholic upbringing was behind this type of defection, but these days it could be anything. But that people walk away from the gospel is proof that they were never changed by it. They were not regenerated, so it would be improper to speak of oneself as a former Christian who changed his mind. There is no such thing as a Christian who changes his mind and turns his back on his salvation. But having not had a regenerative experience in the first place, they wouldn't know the difference, and they would think they had it, and walked away from it.

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More pride and egotism. I doubt most here think about your doctrine at all.
That comes as close as anything to being a direct hit, but I would expect attentive readers here to know at least as much about where I'm coming from as I know about them. It's basic courtesy in a dialogue (or polylogue). I've given thought to people's positions -- Glock36Shooter, FCoulter, you. I read and think about what you say. That's just being observant. And since doctrine is all I talk about, to the extent that anyone pays attention to me at all, it would involve doctrine.

On the subject of 'pride' (it seems to bug you since you've mentioned it several times, in more than one post, to the exclusion of other things) why, if I make a simple statement is it automatically or necessarily condescending, prideful, or arrogant? About my exchange with BuzznRose specifically: regeneration (not 'Christianity', regeneration. Born-againness) is like a language. All believers, wherever they are in the world, know and speak it, or should. I had every right to expect that Buzz, if he is a Christian, would know certain things. All I did, to follow the analogy, was correct his grammar a little. It was a matter of an older brother course-correcting a younger one. Here's an example of the concept from Acts 18:

"He [Apollos] had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Apollos would not have been insulted by that. He would have been -- and was -- grateful. So while it may have sounded like condescension from outside, what transpired between me and BuzznRose was an inter-family moment that shouldn't have bothered him.

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Whick you assume without proof. You're also porud of them and feel the need to advertise.
Assume what? The truth of the Bible and the gospel? There is proof. A lot of it is circumstantial, but there's proof. The ultimate proof is invisible, but even if firm, undeniable evidence was offered to every atheist, it wouldn't change a thing. The rich man, when he died, asked Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers, lest they end up where he was, in torment. Abraham said that they wouldn't believe, even if someone rose from the dead to tell them. And look around -- we have exactly that kind of proof, and yet unbelief is chronic in the world. It's not that there isn't enough evidence to believe, it's that most people are not chosen to believe.

As for "advertising" something... I don't think I was advertising. I was articulating. A forum is a place for open public discussion. Sometimes the discussion comes in the form of debate. You state your case, I state mine. We agree to disagree, and then we go install ghost connectors. I wouldn't say I 'advertise' the Christian position any more than atheists here 'advertise' challenges to that position. It's what you'd expect, from both sides.

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Pure, Biblical Theology as defined by you that you assume without evidence. Everyone else wrong, but you're not prideful.
Again with the 'evidence...' An atheist dig. (I sometimes wonder why someone who doesn't believe that God exists would hang around a forum dedicated to religion. I think it's an inner need to silence the voice of God, and every echo of it, wherever it's found. It's like moths to a flame. If I didn't believe Kenndy was the 35th President, I wouldn't waste a second on a JFK website, but self-described atheists not only come here, they frequent this forum. There's a pathology here...)

I don't know what the reference is, because the Reply function pulled only your words, but if it's about the Calvinist position, I accurately set forth the basic Calvinist position. I didn't originate it, by the way, skilled Theologians did. Wikipedia probably says it better than I did, but that it's on Wikipedia at all is just proof that the world recognizes the content of Calvinism, so it's hardly "defined by me." To disagree with it is not to be wrong. It's to be unilluminated. Not unenlightened -- unilluminated.

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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
This type of arragonce is one of the many things that make people hostile to religion.
An unbelieving golfer was on the course with Billy Graham, and a Theologian. The atheist took the Theologian aside and said he was tired of Billy Graham "cramming the Bible down his throat." It came out that Billy hadn't said anything to the guy. Billy's presence was conviction enough. I tell that to make this point: People are hostile to religion because it's in their nature to be hostile. I've been over this in another thread -- we're born pissed off at God. I knew a Jewish girl once. What pissed her off about Christianity was that it is exclusive, and she didn't subscribe to it. It annoyed her not only that Jesus said He was 'the [only] Way,' but that anyone (me in this case) would agree with that, because that was an implied criticism of her path, and that's what really got to her. Who's proud in this case? The gospel's very existence was an affront to her pride.

If the only thing that can make an atheist not hostile to religion is that no one ever mentions it, I think the problem lies with the atheist.
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Old 09-27-2012, 19:21   #132
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There are more than 730 established Religions in the world which are broken out into more the 3200 different sects. Christianity, for example is 1 of the major religions but has more than 200 sub sects, each with their own unique traditions and of the bible.So which one is right the christians, muslims hindu,s?
Any of them ?
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Old 09-27-2012, 19:23   #133
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There are more than 730 established Religions in the world which are broken out into more the 3200 different sects. Christianity, for example is 1 of the major religions but has more than 200 sub sects, each with their own unique traditions and of the bible.So which one is right the christians, muslims hindu,s?
Any of them ?

I like to think they all have a little right.


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Old 09-27-2012, 20:40   #134
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
I meant regenerated. Not just on this forum, but anywhere. 40 years ago, more people were 'religious' (don't like the word) than not. These days, to run into a regenerated person is rare. The world has rapidly and broadly secularized in my lifetime. It rises to the level of phenomenon. Of course there are well informed people who disagree with me. Doesn't mean they share the same eternal life, which is what I was talking about. The underlying theme of this forum seems to be that many people have had exposure to 'Christian' influences or upbringing, but have walked away from it. Long ago, you could assume a Catholic upbringing was behind this type of defection, but these days it could be anything. But that people walk away from the gospel is proof that they were never changed by it. They were not regenerated, so it would be improper to speak of oneself as a former Christian who changed his mind. There is no such thing as a Christian who changes his mind and turns his back on his salvation. But having not had a regenerative experience in the first place, they wouldn't know the difference, and they would think they had it, and walked away from it.



That comes as close as anything to being a direct hit, but I would expect attentive readers here to know at least as much about where I'm coming from as I know about them. It's basic courtesy in a dialogue (or polylogue). I've given thought to people's positions -- Glock36Shooter, FCoulter, you. I read and think about what you say. That's just being observant. And since doctrine is all I talk about, to the extent that anyone pays attention to me at all, it would involve doctrine.

On the subject of 'pride' (it seems to bug you since you've mentioned it several times, in more than one post, to the exclusion of other things) why, if I make a simple statement is it automatically or necessarily condescending, prideful, or arrogant? About my exchange with BuzznRose specifically: regeneration (not 'Christianity', regeneration. Born-againness) is like a language. All believers, wherever they are in the world, know and speak it, or should. I had every right to expect that Buzz, if he is a Christian, would know certain things. All I did, to follow the analogy, was correct his grammar a little. It was a matter of an older brother course-correcting a younger one. Here's an example of the concept from Acts 18:

"He [Apollos] had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Apollos would not have been insulted by that. He would have been -- and was -- grateful. So while it may have sounded like condescension from outside, what transpired between me and BuzznRose was an inter-family moment that shouldn't have bothered him.



Assume what? The truth of the Bible and the gospel? There is proof. A lot of it is circumstantial, but there's proof. The ultimate proof is invisible, but even if firm, undeniable evidence was offered to every atheist, it wouldn't change a thing. The rich man, when he died, asked Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers, lest they end up where he was, in torment. Abraham said that they wouldn't believe, even if someone rose from the dead to tell them. And look around -- we have exactly that kind of proof, and yet unbelief is chronic in the world. It's not that there isn't enough evidence to believe, it's that most people are not chosen to believe.

As for "advertising" something... I don't think I was advertising. I was articulating. A forum is a place for open public discussion. Sometimes the discussion comes in the form of debate. You state your case, I state mine. We agree to disagree, and then we go install ghost connectors. I wouldn't say I 'advertise' the Christian position any more than atheists here 'advertise' challenges to that position. It's what you'd expect, from both sides.



Again with the 'evidence...' An atheist dig. (I sometimes wonder why someone who doesn't believe that God exists would hang around a forum dedicated to religion. I think it's an inner need to silence the voice of God, and every echo of it, wherever it's found. It's like moths to a flame. If I didn't believe Kenndy was the 35th President, I wouldn't waste a second on a JFK website, but self-described atheists not only come here, they frequent this forum. There's a pathology here...)

I don't know what the reference is, because the Reply function pulled only your words, but if it's about the Calvinist position, I accurately set forth the basic Calvinist position. I didn't originate it, by the way, skilled Theologians did. Wikipedia probably says it better than I did, but that it's on Wikipedia at all is just proof that the world recognizes the content of Calvinism, so it's hardly "defined by me." To disagree with it is not to be wrong. It's to be unilluminated. Not unenlightened -- unilluminated.



An unbelieving golfer was on the course with Billy Graham, and a Theologian. The atheist took the Theologian aside and said he was tired of Billy Graham "cramming the Bible down his throat." It came out that Billy hadn't said anything to the guy. Billy's presence was conviction enough. I tell that to make this point: People are hostile to religion because it's in their nature to be hostile. I've been over this in another thread -- we're born pissed off at God. I knew a Jewish girl once. What pissed her off about Christianity was that it is exclusive, and she didn't subscribe to it. It annoyed her not only that Jesus said He was 'the [only] Way,' but that anyone (me in this case) would agree with that, because that was an implied criticism of her path, and that's what really got to her. Who's proud in this case? The gospel's very existence was an affront to her pride.

If the only thing that can make an atheist not hostile to religion is that no one ever mentions it, I think the problem lies with the atheist.
It's really difficult for me to be civil with people like you. You're the cause of most of the world's evils. You have no idea how much you grate on people and if you get a hint you attribute it to people being deceived by Satan because you couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. Keep grinding people down with your pride. It hastens the demise of religion.

If you get a chance read, Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He makes the case that pride is the only unforgivable sin. Prideful people never consider that they could be prideful and therefore never repent or change. For that reason, a discussion with a prideful person is a waste of time.
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Old 09-27-2012, 21:51   #135
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"You're the cause of most of the world's evils. You have no idea how much you grate on people and if you get a hint you attribute it to people being deceived by Satan because you couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. "

I can't be personally responsible for the world's evils, so I'm assuming you are really talking to 'you [religious] people' and not me personally. If I'm merely articulating a Theological position (as far as I know, that's all I'm doing), and it bothers you, the problem may be with the Theology, and not with me.

It's a given that if you're an atheist and I'm a Christian, we will not have a meeting of the minds philosophically. But we know that going in, so if we have a dialogue, it is guaranteed to end in disagreement. But it doesn't have to end in incivility. I don't feel I've done anything to deliberatly offend you. I'd say the same things to anyone. As I said earlier, I say what I believe to be true, and I don't filter it to avoid sounding like a know-it-all. This evidently comes across as pride to you, but I'm just standing on my convictions. I'm asserting that the sky is blue. If you don't believe it's blue, you can tell me what color you think it is, and we can discuss it.

You mentioned that my ideas grate. You've said similar things in other posts.

Imagine being a Christian here, and reading the constant stream of slander against God, Jesus, and people of faith. Imagine hearing people say that what you believe is 'mythology;' that there's no 'evidence' or 'proof' for the thing you reckon to be the Truest of Truths. The most demeaning treatment of God is quite possibily an assertion that He doesn't even exist, and you guys enjoy expressing that atheist view. I could say you sound 'proud' to hold that view, and a little superior toward the poor unenlightened souls who haven't evolved to where you are. Be honest, it sounds like that. You are as firmly persuaded of the truth of your position as I am of mine. You talk down to people of faith as if they're backward misfits with emotional insecurities that make them cling to a superstition. You push every Christian button I can think of, and whan I stand on my convictions, I'm proud, arrogant, and responsible for the evils in the world.

Let's both look in that mirror.

I'll make an effort not to sound cavalier or superior. It's the best I can do. I mean no harm, and I take none. But I know what I'm talking about. You don't have to believe it, but the confidence in my tone is just that. Confidence, not condescension. If it is real condescension, I apologize.
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Old 09-27-2012, 22:14   #136
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Not all Christians have always been 100% saintly. But their record is far better (the inquisition killed a few thousand)...
There you go rewriting history again. 2,000,000 were murdered during the "Spanish Inquisition" alone (nobody expects the Spanish Imquisition), however the Various Inquisitions lasted hundreds of years, ans spanned Europe, North Africa, and the Americas. The total number killed are estimated between 50,000,000 & 60,000,000!
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/esti...#_Toc135810598

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Old 09-27-2012, 22:19   #137
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
As I said earlier, I say what I believe to be true, and I don't filter it to avoid sounding like a know-it-all.
Or, to say it differently, you say what you feel is true without regard to what is likely to be true and you (and all others that feel as you) act upon that to the detriment of soceity (and more importantly, me) as a whole.

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I'm asserting that the sky is blue. If you don't believe it's blue, you can tell me what color you think it is, and we can discuss it.
The problem with that analogy is that one of us has actually looked at the sky and the other has not.

[quote]Imagine being a Christian here, and reading the constant stream of slander against God, Jesus, and people of faith.[/quote[

You can't slander a myth. As for the people, it's not slander if it's true.

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Imagine hearing people say that what you believe is 'mythology;' that there's no 'evidence' or 'proof' for the thing you reckon to be the Truest of Truths.
Oops.

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The most demeaning treatment of God is quite possibily an assertion that He doesn't even exist, and you guys enjoy expressing that atheist view. I could say you sound 'proud' to hold that view, and a little superior toward the poor unenlightened souls who haven't evolved to where you are. Be honest, it sounds like that.
Honestly, I wish I were wrong. I really do wish that there were a god out there that could be relied upon to do the right thing for us. I was a believer for the first 38 years of my life and I do miss the (illusory) certainty it provided, but the evidence just isn't there to support such a conclusion.

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I'll make an effort not to sound cavalier or superior. It's the best I can do. I mean no harm, and I take none.
Fair enough, although some won't agree, I do as well (except when confronted with intellectual dishonesty).

Quote:
But I know what I'm talking about. You don't have to believe it, but the confidence in my tone is just that. Confidence, not condescension. If it is real condescension, I apologize.
But you only think you know you're right. That is the big difference in our mindsets. There are many topics where I am convinced I am right (politics, for instance), but realize that I don't have a way to prove it. So, I behave as if there is doubt (even though I personally don't see any) instead of behaving as if I have the only truth that applies to everybody.
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:51   #138
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I like to think they all have a little right.


.
But mostly A LOT OF WRONG.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:35   #139
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Soviet, Chinese and other communists have murdered countless Christians in the name of their state atheism. Try not to be a liar all your life.
Has nothing to do with Atheism. That is communism and Anti-Theism to the extremest level. But not Atheism. I for one am an Anti-Theist just like You are a Christian. I for one would like to see religion end. However, I'm not an extremest. I wouldn't blow up a building to end Theism. I feel you might, to preserve or enforce Christianity.

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Did I say all Muslims are murderers? No. So stop lying about what I said.
I asked a question. I wasn't making a statement.

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The ideology of Islam, however, is evil
No more than Christianity.

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and has been responsible for an estimated 280 million murders of innocent people.
It's undocumented the total number of innocent people claimed by Christianity and Judaism. But they're no better.

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Where did I say that Christians were the only group that has established hospitals and universities? I didn't, therefore you have just lied again.
You held it up as if it were a unique achievement of Christianity. It is not. Therefore it's nothing special. Many of the "universities" you mention are Christian Universities dedicated to the spreading of misinformation, ignorance, and apologetics. They kinda serve the opposite purpose you'd expect of an institution of "Higher" learning. And the hospitals rely on the medicine born of the very scientific principle Christian Mythologists spit on. True institutions of hypocrisy, these.

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Paul Lutheran Church of Mardan, Pakistan, which was burned down by Muslims 5 days ago, along with 2 pastor houses and a head-teacher's house. Muslims in just the last few years have burned probably hundreds of churches in such places as Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, the Philippines, Sudan, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Indonesia, and in the heart of Europe (Albanian Muslims burned at least one Serbian church in 2011). This is to say nothing of all the Christian girls kidnapped, raped and forced to marry their Muslim rapist, Christian converts stabbed and had acid thrown on them by Muslims in Norway, and Christian schoolgirls beheaded by Muslims in Indonesia.
And Obama is to blame for this. That's what you said.

Also, seems you Christians are getting a little taste of your own medicine. How many muslim homes and churches were burned down during the crusades? How many muslim women and girls you think were raped?

Of course I think it's all horrible. But this is what you get with religion. Yours and theirs. Nothing has created more human suffering and has set us back more as a species than religion. I wonder how much further along we'd be without God. All of them.

Quote:
If you want to see craziness, in addition to looking in a mirror, you could check out youtube's video's of Muslims stoning Christians in Dearborn, Michigan, this year. Thank God though, such Satanic craziness will not be allowed to go on endlessly (read the Bible).
They're just obeying their crazy book. Yours says to stone people to death too. This is what happens when people believe in 2000 year old nonsense. You're only making my point for me. I'm so thankful religion is dying out in the nation. In 100 years the religious will be a crazy and strange minority that make up about 10% in this nation. We'll remember the days man was insane and believed in invisible begins that commanded us to kill one another in their name.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:12   #140
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I meant regenerated. Not just on this forum, but anywhere. 40 years ago, more people were 'religious' (don't like the word) than not. These days, to run into a regenerated person is rare. The world has rapidly and broadly secularized in my lifetime. It rises to the level of phenomenon.
It's because you aren't making the connection. The level at which people are waking up from the delusion of religion is directly proportional to the level at which we as a species are learning about our world and universe. We are at a point where the religious are simply either uneducated or CHOOSE to be ignorant of what we now know because their fear of not believing is greater than the obvious truth that they don't need to. It's hard for some to lay down their security blanket that brings them so much comfort and peace. It is getting harder and harder to be religious for rational people because we simply know most of what is taught in religion to be untrue. And we're finding we can be moral and productive people without it. No one is disproving God. We're finding out he was just never necessary for life to happen on its own.

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The ultimate proof is invisible, but even if firm, undeniable evidence was offered to every atheist, it wouldn't change a thing.
Your're wrong. If I saw Jesus float down on a cloud to the sound of trumpets, and he started healing the sick, and raising the dead... I'd admit I was wrong. But I look around at the world and I see nothing of this Christ or Yahweh. I see a very natural world that can be explained by very natural processes. And I'm right, because there is evidence to support that.

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Abraham said that they wouldn't believe, even if someone rose from the dead to tell them. And look around -- we have exactly that kind of proof, and yet unbelief is chronic in the world.

Who arose from the dead. What proof? Where? All you have are stories. No proof... stories. Are we to believe everything in Greek Mythology too? You really think there was a woman that could turn men to stone with a look? They wrote it down in ancient texts. Must be true since bronze aged people wrote it down right? I mean the bronze age was the height of human knowledge and experience... so everything written then must be true. Bibles and Korans and such were the bronze age's internet.... you can't really take it all very seriously.

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(I sometimes wonder why someone who doesn't believe that God exists would hang around a forum dedicated to religion.
That right there is the first step in the religious wanting to silence the voice of the Atheist. "Why come here?" "Why debate if you don't believe?" "You shouldn't be allowed here." "You're being oppressive." "We should make a law that forbids you from saying such things."

This is why we come here. To battle you here so we don't have to find ourselves under your boots elsewhere.

Quote:
If the only thing that can make an atheist not hostile to religion is that no one ever mentions it, I think the problem lies with the atheist.
You're not getting it. I'll break it down for you in an anecdotal little story. I am friends with a fella that is VERY religious. He's a Christian and we have friendly discussions about it often. And they get intense but at the end we still love each other. His brother on the other hand comes right out of the gate claiming that I cannot be a moral man without the bible. That I am going to burn in Hell for all eternity (with an almost look of joy in his eyes). He tells me he's uncomfortable with me being around his children. He lumps me in with pedophiles, rapists, and murderers for my lack of belief. He feels evolution should be banned in schools and the bible taught in it's place. He feels Christianity is the founding religion of this country and that this is a CHRISTIAN nation and that our laws should be based in its teachings.

This is what we rail against. We don't care what you believe. Some of us simply love to debate. But it's that militant Christian that wants to FORCE us to live by their faith via legislation that we fight. And it's that Christian that will continue to lose to us time and time again.

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