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Old 09-16-2012, 12:25   #41
Kalmah
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I'd like to see a number of 9mm calibrated gel tests using a platform with a 3" barrel. A good candidate for the test weapon would be the new S&W Shield as that pistol apparently has been a very reliable one since its introduction.

There are enough tests in 9mm with the 4" barrel length to allow everyone with the ability to do their own research to arrive at a personal decision. It appears to me that as barrel length increases the bullet weight a particular caliber was designed around only increases in effectiveness, with heavier weight bullets becoming viable with greater barrel length and SAAMI pressure.

There are so many hundreds of thousands of micro 9mm pistols in private hands today that I really think the next step in this area is the investigation into how the various weight bullets perform in the same media used to establish criteria for barrels of 4" or longer. I wouldn't be surprised to learn a 115-grain 9mm bullet outperform a 147-grain bullet in the micro-sized pistol.
I agree. All the testing that has been done has been with 4" or longer barrels. All the street results come from police officers carrying full-sized duty weapons.

But a lot of people, myself included, carry sub-compact or micro 9mm handguns for CCW. We've all heard over and over again which bullets work out of full-sized handguns. I'd like to know if those same bullets are recommended for for 3" barrels, or if the shorter barrel changes the game completely.
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Old 09-16-2012, 19:24   #42
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I agree. All the testing that has been done has been with 4" or longer barrels. All the street results come from police officers carrying full-sized duty weapons.

But a lot of people, myself included, carry sub-compact or micro 9mm handguns for CCW. We've all heard over and over again which bullets work out of full-sized handguns. I'd like to know if those same bullets are recommended for for 3" barrels, or if the shorter barrel changes the game completely.
A very good question, fewer people carry pistols that fit the 4" barrel criteria. Pistols are getting smaller and smaller. There is a member of GT that does mouse gun tests in Sim-test media. He tests the smaller calibers (.32, .380, etc.) and also tests 9mm and .40 s&w (IIRC) out of short-barreled pistols. That may be a good resource for those with short-barreled SD pistols.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have a G24 that I would like to use for a HD pistol. However, with a 6" barrel I am moving the GDs faster than the 4" barrel used for many tests.

I finally made the decision to go with the G23 w/357 sig barrel for HD using G22 mags. I am just a little worried about JHPs remaining intact at the velocities I am getting in a 6" barrel. I have seen my G24 blow too many JHPs apart when shooting water bottles.
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Old 09-16-2012, 21:45   #43
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I finally made the decision to go with the G23 w/357 sig barrel for HD using G22 mags. I am just a little worried about JHPs remaining intact at the velocities I am getting in a 6" barrel. I have seen my G24 blow too many JHPs apart when shooting water bottles.
You should be all right with 125-grain Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber +P Bonded at the velocities you're likely to get with these ammos.
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Old 09-18-2012, 23:16   #44
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You should be all right with 125-grain Speer Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber +P Bonded at the velocities you're likely to get with these ammos.
I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more. I'll be testing with just water jugs, for a worst-case expansion test. I can live with some fragmentation (petals peeling off). I can't live with the mess I've seen from other JHPs out of that barrel.

If I had a G19 I think I would go with one of the 124/127gr +p offerings from Speer, Winchester, Federal, etc. I have to say that I am very intrigued by 9BPLE. It flies in the face of current trends towards bonded, heavy-for-caliber, non-fragmenting loads. But it seems to have a good street rep. per many GT members.

BTW - Where does everyone get the street results that are discussed often on GT? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and feel like a idiot regurgitating those results without seeing the sources. Books, internet, other sources?
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Old 09-27-2012, 20:37   #45
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I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more. I'll be testing with just water jugs, for a worst-case expansion test. I can live with some fragmentation (petals peeling off). I can't live with the mess I've seen from other JHPs out of that barrel.

If I had a G19 I think I would go with one of the 124/127gr +p offerings from Speer, Winchester, Federal, etc. I have to say that I am very intrigued by 9BPLE. It flies in the face of current trends towards bonded, heavy-for-caliber, non-fragmenting loads. But it seems to have a good street rep. per many GT members.

BTW - Where does everyone get the street results that are discussed often on GT? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and feel like a idiot regurgitating those results without seeing the sources. Books, internet, other sources?
Evan Marshall is an authoritative source of handgun performance on the street. he wrote a book about it.
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Old 09-28-2012, 19:34   #46
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It is all about shot placement.
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Old 09-28-2012, 20:15   #47
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I generally alternate between 124 Gr Gold Dots or 125 Gr Cor Bon stuff. Feeds and shoot great out of my G19. I currently have some of that Hornady Zombie max stuff in it. Surprisingly or perhaps not surprisingly, they are damn accurate. I plan on getting some Underwood 9mm to try out. My G20 LOVES Underwood!
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Old 09-28-2012, 22:02   #48
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I love it when people poo-poo gel testing. You got something better that you're keeping a secret?

Doc is a DENTIST???! Well there ya go, he must be an idiot and must not really have done any of this ballistics work over the years that he's claimed.

There are 147 grainers on his list so I'm not even sure why this topic came up.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 09-28-2012 at 22:05..
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Old 09-28-2012, 22:25   #49
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I've been thinking a lot about this. I have some GD 53918 that I am going to test in Oct. I am guessing that it does ~1,300 to 1,330fps in a 4" barrel, so I am guessing that I am probably getting ~1,400 to 1,450fps from a 6" barrel, maybe a little more.
I think that particular round would be very effective for self-defense as the 5-petal .357sig Gold Dot is supposed to be "limited penetration" at nominal .357sig caliber velocity. Through a barrel with 2" additional length that bullet ought to be more than enough.

I am very curious about this particular Speer bullet as it's not offered to reloaders and is a proprietary Speer product. The only tests I've seen for this round is
and it performed superbly in his video.

With your setup the 5-petal .357sig Gold Dot might yield less penetration but with a more explosive impact wound track.
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Old 09-29-2012, 00:11   #50
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While the extra velocity is an attractive aspect of the G24, the main reason I keep it as my HD pistol is that I shoot it a little better than my G23. Not just with regards to accuracy, I get that 2nd and 3rd shot a little quicker. Plus, it weighs enough I can club someone with it if I run out of bullets

Seriously, I feel the extra 2" of barrel does give me some extra options. I would imagine 155gr and 165gr .40 bullets are moving pretty quickly out of the 6" barrel. A 147 gr 357 sig load might be interesting with the added velocity. I have come to the conclusion that as long as I stick with a bonded bullet I'll be OK.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:38   #51
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Your bullet fine, per the authority: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De.../index.htm#9mm



Good question. These are the same people who adamantly refuse to acknowledge the FACT that both the 9mm 115JHP+P+ and the 357Mag 125JHP, used by street cops across the nation in hundreds of shootings, have a proven street record.

But hey, DocGKR doesn't let such facts get in the way when it comes down to testing bullets in the artificial labratory under artificial conditions using ballistic jello that cannot and will never be able to simulate real human flesh, blood and bones.
I am glad to hear this, seeing how I carry WW 9mm +p+ 115gr JHP ammo.
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Old 09-29-2012, 18:47   #52
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[QUOTE=cowboy1964;19466490]I love it when people poo-poo gel testing. You got something better that you're keeping a secret?

"Doc is a DENTIST???! Well there ya go, he must be an idiot and must not really have done any of this ballistics work over the years that he's claimed."

I wouldn't say he's an idiot. But many people go around calling him a "author and a professional at ballistics". He certainly has a lot of experience testing bullets like many ammunition Aficionado's, but his professional education wasn't in ballistics.
Many tout his opinion as coming from Mt. Olympus. I take my knowledge from many sources, lab and street and choose accordingly.
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Old 09-29-2012, 21:38   #53
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I think gel testing is a great way to compare loads. It allows you to see if one load penetrates more than another, if one bullet expands more than another, etc. However, I think there is a lot to learn from real world load performance. My biggest issue with both sides of this debate is that they completely ignore each other.

Gel testing is not the only way to gather information on loads. At the same time, street results need to be gathered in a way that allow them to be analysed scientifically and statistically.

Or, on the other hand, you miss and none of it matters
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Old 09-29-2012, 21:46   #54
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I carry a Glock 19, never shot in self defense, but I have shot a few little hogs with it and a couple of skunks.

I shot the hogs with Winchester NATO, the skunks with 124+p Gold Dots.

All were DRT. Shot placement.

I carry Win Ranger T 127+p+, Fed HST 147+p and Win PDX 124+p. No particular rhyme or reason why/when I carry the different types. I've tested all of 'em for function and accuracy and hope I can put 'em where I need 'em when I need to.
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Old 09-29-2012, 23:56   #55
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Shot placement.
There it is.
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Old 09-30-2012, 23:20   #56
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147 gr. HSTs
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Old 09-30-2012, 23:28   #57
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This is what I carry.

Caliber Corner


Sent from my iPhone 4s
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:37   #58
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This is what I carry.

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That is a decent load. If I recall correctly, that load chronoed at about 1250 FPS.
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Old 10-31-2012, 18:11   #59
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just pickup a box of 147 +P and 124 +P HST's for my g19 gen 4 from ammo to go. still on the fence here.

one thing for sure federal would not produce a 147gr HST for giggles...
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Old 10-31-2012, 18:25   #60
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just pickup a box of 147 +P and 124 +P HST's for my g19 gen 4 from ammo to go. still on the fence here.

one thing for sure federal would not produce a 147gr HST for giggles...
I'd use the 124 gr loads. They'll exceed 1200 FPS out of your G19.
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