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Old 09-30-2012, 09:48   #76
Gpruitt54
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Originally Posted by PCJim View Post
GP, reread what Fred posted that I highlighted in red. The industry "max" length is 1.169, and some magazine/pistol combinations will allow for an even longer COL. The minimum is just that, with the published load. You can always go longer as long as the COL will work in your barrel/magazine.

The best guideline is to first disassemble your pistol and use the barrel as a guide. Load your rounds to the longest COL that will pass the drop/plunk test for your barrel. Your round should drop into the chamber without any protrusion outside the rear of the chamber. (You can take a factory round, drop it in and look at how the case head seats into the rear of the chamber.)

Second, test that COL in your pistol's magazine. Load a round into the mag. The bullet should not scrape the inside of the magazine. If your COL passes both tests, you're at a good COL for that pistol/barrel combination.

The reason we always recommend you load to the longest COL is that doing so provides the most available volume inside the case where the pressure is developed during firing. Always remember that for any specific cartridge, less case volume equates to more pressure. Since your components and pistol combination will almost never be the same as the testing apparatus used to develop the published data, it is always best to allow yourself some leeway. Stretching the COL is effectively providing some relief for the pressure.

Once you've become satisfied with the round and are overly familiar with pressure signs, you can work on slowly reducing the COL, should you find a strong reason for doing so.

Personally, all my FMJ and LCN rounds are loaded to 1.14 - 1.15. That COL works in every 9mm that I own.
I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?
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Old 09-30-2012, 13:06   #77
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?
YEs, the OAL in most manuals is a tested OAL or minimum. Going below that will increase pressures, loaded longer reduces pressures. So think of a longer OAL as insurance. My point about measuring a factory round is it's a dangerous assumption that it is correct or safe. Load a faster powder, like AA#2 to the top end & then load it at shorter OAL, you are pushing over pressure. Since most powders do NOT build pressure in a linear fashion, there is really no "a little over max". Some powders spike as you go over the top end, some spike badly enough to cause a KB (Clays, TG), so just plugging in a factory OAL can get you into trouble with wrong loads.
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Last edited by fredj338; 09-30-2012 at 13:08..
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:43   #78
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Every since I learned that a lack of a taper crimp was the reason I couldn't get my 10mm rounds to feed reliably in a LWD barrel I've started taper crimping all my calibers. No matter what caliber you use, if you get an aftermarket barrel it will have tighter tolerances requiring you to taper crimp. There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:55   #79
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.
Taper crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back in a pistol. If you have bullet set back your sizer die is bad or you donít have it adjusted right.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:30   #80
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I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:07   #81
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

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If you are crimping a straight wall cartridge hard enough to prevent setback, you are crimping too hard. The crimp should be just enough to close up the case mouth and not hard enough to indent the bullet. Neck tension should hold the bullet.

Plated bullets don't work well when the plating has been damaged by a crimp.

I don't reload carry rounds, I buy them. I try to rotate them but, for what they cost, I don't shoot them very often.

As to my reloads? When they go into the magazine the brass will soon be on the ground. I don't think I have ever rechambered a reload.

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Old 10-02-2012, 13:29   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

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It actually does not. You can NOT taper crimp tight enough to prevent bullet setback. In fact, too ,uch taper crimp can actually reduce neck tenstion & proper neck tension is what prevents setback.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:58   #83
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Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:01   #84
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Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?
Seating and crimping in one step can work just fine if setting up the die properly. I have had far better results with seating and crimping in separate steps when using soft plated bullets like Berry's though.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:04   #85
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Taper crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back in a pistol. If you have bullet set back your sizer die is bad or you donít have it adjusted right.

That and if you have severly work-hardened brass neck tension can also be compromised. I have observed nickel-plated cases to be susceptible to this.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:18   #86
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Originally Posted by dmit View Post
Is one way any better than the other to seat and crimp with one die or seat with one die and crimp with another?
Most will agree that separate dies are best. This is especially true when roll crimping. If roll crimping and seating is attempted with one die, the crimp is attempting to hold the bullet firm while the seating operation is still moving the bullet. The two simultaneous operations are fighting one another.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:26   #87
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For a glock an OAL between 1.125 to 1.135 is ideal.
But new reloaders should use what the book for their load says. Only after you have mastered the book load should you consider altering the formula to find the sweet spot for your individual gun.
An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:17   #88
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With jacleted bullets, seating & crimping in one step can be done w/ good results. With soft plated or lead, separate steps tends to yield better results. It can be done either way though.
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Old 10-07-2012, 13:59   #89
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
YEs, the OAL in most manuals is a tested OAL or minimum. Going below that will increase pressures, loaded longer reduces pressures. So think of a longer OAL as insurance. My point about measuring a factory round is it's a dangerous assumption that it is correct or safe. Load a faster powder, like AA#2 to the top end & then load it at shorter OAL, you are pushing over pressure. Since most powders do NOT build pressure in a linear fashion, there is really no "a little over max". Some powders spike as you go over the top end, some spike badly enough to cause a KB (Clays, TG), so just plugging in a factory OAL can get you into trouble with wrong loads.
what's odd is the OAL provided in the manuals matches one-to-one my factory loads. So, it seems, at least to me the manuals are correct.

I never load above max. If I go beyond the mid point, its at least 2 to 3 10ths of a grain below max (Always). In my manuals, for any given load, the OAL is the same for the minimum to the max load.

So, how much longer should I go? Is there general rule for this adjustment over and above what is listed in the manuals. I am using the Lee (2nd Edition), Hornady (8th edition), and Lyman.

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 10-07-2012 at 14:34..
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:06   #90
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An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:55   #91
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.
Bluntly put, you are in the position of having to derive information because you bought components for which, at best, there is only limited data. That pretty much sums it up.

If you bought a manual, bought components to match and assembled to a given OAL, there wouldn't even be a question about the loads.

There is no suggestion that I have read in this thread to ever work outside published data. I certainly don't do it and I would never recommend it.

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Old 10-07-2012, 15:41   #92
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.
It's not that complicated. Look at the chart below. The right side of the chart is safer, the left side is more dangerous (hint, hint). Big side of the < is safer NOT better.

Heavier Powder Charge < Lighter Powder Charge
Shorter OAL < Longer OAL
Heavier Bullet < Lighter Bullet
Lead < Plated < FMJ/JHP

How does this information help?

So if your moving the variable to the right side of the chart you are moving to safer direction. Not a riskier direction. So a manual will have a OAL of 1.110". If you load to 1.120 you can safely ignore the manuals suggestion for OAL (assuming it fits your barrel and has enough bullet engagement). I always load longer then the manuals OAL. I also always figure out how long I can load that specific bullet in my barrel. And then load it just a little shorter (about .010").

The mistake many reloaders make is they take every variable above and go to the safer side (THE RIGHT ). Then they wonder why their reloads don't work right. You want a reasonable amount of pressure to make everything (including your gun) work right.
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Old 10-07-2012, 16:24   #93
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
How is a new reloader supposed to know when not to follow the manuals. I am a new reloader. It seems dangerous for me, or any new reloader to simply start ignoring the published information in the manuals. Try not to confuse those of us who are new to this. Maybe after I have 10 years of reloading experience, I will be in a position to ignore the published tables.

But I am not there yet. If, I may speak for new reloaders.
Sorry if I miss led you. Always follow the manuals.
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Old 10-07-2012, 16:26   #94
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I missed it too. Don't feel bad.

Last edited by judgecrater; 10-07-2012 at 16:33..
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Old 10-07-2012, 16:30   #95
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
It's not that complicated. Look at the chart below. The right side of the chart is safer, the left side is more dangerous (hint, hint). Big side of the > is safer NOT better.

Lighter Powder Charge > Heavier Powder Charge
Longer OAL > Shorter OAL
Lighter Bullet > Heavier Bullet
FMJ/JHP > Plated > Lead

How does this information help?

So if your moving the variable to the right side of the chart you are moving to safer direction. Not a riskier direction. So a manual will have a OAL of 1.110". If you load to 1.120 you can safely ignore the manuals suggestion for OAL (assuming it fits your barrel and has enough bullet engagement). I always load longer then the manuals OAL. I also always figure out how long I can load that specific bullet in my barrel. And then load it just a little shorter (about .010").

The mistake many reloaders make is they take every variable above and go to the safer side (THE RIGHT ). Then they wonder why their reloads don't work right. You want a reasonable amount of pressure to make everything (including your gun) work right.
I must be having another senior moment. Moving the powder charge from light to heavy, which is to the right, is not making it safer. In my view...

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Old 10-07-2012, 16:45   #96
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Watching Denver lose is frustrating. Guess I was distracted.
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Old 10-07-2012, 20:24   #97
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An ideal range of OAL for a Glock or any other pistol is fully dependent on the bullet shape. One length that is idea for a roundnose may not feed properly for a truncated cone or some other shape. As for the balance of your post, you are absolutely correct. Far too many reloaders closely follow the bullet weight/powder charge in the manual, then ignore the OAL, which is equally important in maintaining safe pressures.
Every glock 9mm and 40 bullet I have ever tried (except some 180 simi-wadcutter lead bullets, which would never reliably feed) has loaded fine in that range.

But new loaders should follow published recipes!
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:30   #98
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Sorry if I miss led you. Always follow the manuals.
Hay, thanks. I appreciate all the feedback and advice I get from this forum. For me, it's a valuable resource. I am not pointing fingers, just looking for clarification. We all have points of view that some of us are in a position to take advantage of, and other are not yet ready. Give me a few more years of reloading, I'll get there.

In the meantime, thanks for your input.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:35   #99
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Watching Denver lose is frustrating. Guess I was distracted.
What the...? LoL!
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:57   #100
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Load 4.0 and see what it does. I think you 3.8 is a little low.
Not sure if I replied to this one, but I increased my powder load to 4.0gn and another set of rounds at 4.3gn. Boy-o-boy that really did the trick. The gun cycles flawlessly, and the accuracy and groupings are better than I could have asked for... fantastic!

Both powder loads were very good, but I think I like the 4.3gn load just a little better. As I look at my load notes, I think I found a load for the 9mm with Accurate #2. I've said it before, the ultra small particles of Accurate #2 seem to fill the Lee Pro Auto Disk opening more consistently than any of the other powders (HP-38 and Unique).

I cannot measure FPS, I don't have the device to measure velocity.
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