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Old 09-23-2012, 01:12   #61
Zombie Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I stopped the my local sporting good store and picked up a Hornady reloading manual, 8th edition. That makes three manuals all together. Thanks for the recommendation. Unlike the other manuals I've been using, the Hornady manual starts with much higher FPS powder loads.
I mean no offense to Hornady when I say their manual is about the farthest from reality of anything I've tested...

Just make sure you're looking at the whole picture - seems like they test all pistol loads from a 7-1/2" Blackhawk barrel.

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Old 09-23-2012, 14:11   #62
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GP, as you stated, it is highly recommended that you document each of the components used, COL, date, and chrono results at a minimum. Keep it in a logbook, Excel spreadsheet or something similar. If/when you start production runs, keep a components data slip with the ammo so that you can keep the batches segregated. While some of this may seem like overkill, redundant and unnecessary, it will become a valuable resource for you in the future.
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Old 09-25-2012, 17:48   #63
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Originally Posted by Zombie Steve View Post
I mean no offense to Hornady when I say their manual is about the farthest from reality of anything I've tested...

Just make sure you're looking at the whole picture - seems like they test all pistol loads from a 7-1/2" Blackhawk barrel.

The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.
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Old 09-25-2012, 22:45   #64
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.
Nothing wrong w/ the Hornady manual but limited data on lead bullets. Most are better than the Lee, really poor reloading manual there IMO. I like the Lyman & SPeer better, but the Hornady is ok.
Good record keeping is a must. It doesn't matter how, spread sheet or binder, but do it. You need to at least note:
powder & how much
bullet & weight
primer brand & type
over all length (OAL or LOA or COAL)
There is lots of other stuff you can note, but that is my min.
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Last edited by fredj338; 09-26-2012 at 18:00..
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Old 09-26-2012, 16:31   #65
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
The Hornady manual has been recommended by many on this forum. So, I bought it. I am very happy with the results. I was experiencing misfeeds with my previous loads. The loads based on the Hornady manual run like silk through my Glock 19. So, it's working for me.

But, what do I know, I'm new at all this.
From your very first posts and description of your jams I would have guessed OAL might be either too long or two short for the bullet profile you were using. Glad your latest reloads are feeding fine. Out of curiosity are you using the same bullets with the same over all length (OAL) and only changed the powder charge? Or are your successful reloads with a different bullet or OAL?
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:09   #66
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Originally Posted by judgecrater View Post
From your very first posts and description of your jams I would have guessed OAL might be either too long or two short for the bullet profile you were using. Glad your latest reloads are feeding fine. Out of curiosity are you using the same bullets with the same over all length (OAL) and only changed the powder charge? Or are your successful reloads with a different bullet or OAL?
Thanks for asking. I did two things.
1.) I upped the powder load to 4.3gn of Accurate #2, per my Hornady manual.
2.) I tightened up the crimp, only a little. Just enough to eliminate the ever so tiny gap between the case neck and the bullet.

The bullets (full metal Jacketed) are from Precision Delta.
The cases are once fired brass from Midway. I've cleaned and checked the case lengths (.745) with a case gauge.

I did not change the OAL of the rounds. The length of the rounds are 1.10 inches. This is based on the Factory 115gn FMJ 9mm rounds (Winchester white box, and Remington) I've been using before I started reloading.

As a side note; this may sound weird, but I really like the attention to detail required for this hobby, and the great questions of all you guys who contribute to this forum. Just thought I'd add that comment.
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Old 09-29-2012, 13:53   #67
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
Thanks for asking. I did two things.
1.) I upped the powder load to 4.3gn of Accurate #2, per my Hornady manual.
2.) I tightened up the crimp, only a little. Just enough to eliminate the ever so tiny gap between the case neck and the bullet.

The bullets (full metal Jacketed) are from Precision Delta.
The cases are once fired brass from Midway. I've cleaned and checked the case lengths (.745) with a case gauge.

I did not change the OAL of the rounds. The length of the rounds are 1.10 inches. This is based on the Factory 115gn FMJ 9mm rounds (Winchester white box, and Remington) I've been using before I started reloading.

As a side note; this may sound weird, but I really like the attention to detail required for this hobby, and the great questions of all you guys who contribute to this forum. Just thought I'd add that comment.
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.
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Last edited by fredj338; 09-29-2012 at 14:05..
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Old 09-29-2012, 21:43   #68
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In his case it didn't matter because he was using way to little powder.

Gpruitt54 most new reloaders make the opposite mistake and go for max loads. Had you tried that with your short OAL you would be talking about your blown up gun!
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Old 09-29-2012, 22:56   #69
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.
So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 09-29-2012 at 23:34.. Reason: more details
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:06   #70
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
You have already made a critical mistake. You can not use OAL from a 115gr factory load w/ handload. You could be pushing dangerously higher pressures. OAL is ALWAYS bullet, gun & load data specific. You should be loading to the longest OAL your gun will run, not by measuring a factory round, unless you are using that exact bullet & powder, which you never will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.
GP, reread what Fred posted that I highlighted in red. The industry "max" length is 1.169, and some magazine/pistol combinations will allow for an even longer COL. The minimum is just that, with the published load. You can always go longer as long as the COL will work in your barrel/magazine.

The best guideline is to first disassemble your pistol and use the barrel as a guide. Load your rounds to the longest COL that will pass the drop/plunk test for your barrel. Your round should drop into the chamber without any protrusion outside the rear of the chamber. (You can take a factory round, drop it in and look at how the case head seats into the rear of the chamber.)

Second, test that COL in your pistol's magazine. Load a round into the mag. The bullet should not scrape the inside of the magazine. If your COL passes both tests, you're at a good COL for that pistol/barrel combination.

The reason we always recommend you load to the longest COL is that doing so provides the most available volume inside the case where the pressure is developed during firing. Always remember that for any specific cartridge, less case volume equates to more pressure. Since your components and pistol combination will almost never be the same as the testing apparatus used to develop the published data, it is always best to allow yourself some leeway. Stretching the COL is effectively providing some relief for the pressure.

Once you've become satisfied with the round and are overly familiar with pressure signs, you can work on slowly reducing the COL, should you find a strong reason for doing so.

Personally, all my FMJ and LCN rounds are loaded to 1.14 - 1.15. That COL works in every 9mm that I own.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:17   #71
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Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
So, what should the OAL be? Neither my Lee or Hornady says what specific OAL to set. I am loading 9mm and .40S&W. I was going to load some .40s but I am going to hold off on that until I get and answer about the OAL thing.

I just looked at my Lee Manual and it says that for my 115gn, FMJ, 9mm, with Accurate #2, the minimum OAL should be 1.07", and the max OAL should no more than 1.16. My 9mm rounds are 1.10". I am very confused, my rounds are above the minimum and below the maximum, so what mistake did I make. More importantly, what number should I be shooting (pun intended) for???

If I understand you, I should be setting my OAL to 1.07", the minimum. Is that right? So why do the manuals list a range with a min and max? And, why would I not go for the middle in my OAL?

I am loading for a Glock 19 Gen2 and a Glock 27 Gen3.
The Accurate manual, written by the manufacturer of the powder you are using, and the people much more likely to have actually tested the load, says that your load is mid-range.

Quote:
No 2 115 SIE FMJ 3.7 971 4.6 1,088 34,202 1.100
Now, you probably aren't using a Sierra bullet but you aren't anywhere near MAX charge either (IIRC, you are using 4.3 gr) and your OAL is spot on for the Accurate data.

If you extend the OAL, you increase the case volume and probably need to increase the charge slightly just to achieve the same velocity. Remember, your original problem was that you didn't have enough velocity to cycle the gun and again, IIRC, you were using 3.8 gr and 1.120" OAL.

There is the potential issue that longer cartridges don't run up the feed ramp as well and, of course, there is the SAAMI limit of 1.169" and a more practical limit of whether the cartridge will fit in the magazine.

There are a lot of variables in reloading and one way of sorting them out is with a chronograph. You really need to know the muzzle velocity. If it is extraordinarily high, beyond what the load should deliver, your pressure is too high. You need to back off on charge or increase OAL. OTOH, if you get around 1000 fps with the load you are using, you are in the right ballpark.

I tend to go by what is written down in front of me and I have a downloaded copy of the Accurate manual. I would load exactly what you have and not give it a moment's thought.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...d_data_3.5.pdf

Mid-range, I like that!

Richard
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:47   #72
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For a glock an OAL between 1.125 to 1.135 is ideal.
But new reloaders should use what the book for their load says. Only after you have mastered the book load should you consider altering the formula to find the sweet spot for your individual gun.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:10   #73
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
The Accurate manual, written by the manufacturer of the powder you are using, and the people much more likely to have actually tested the load, says that your load is mid-range.



Now, you probably aren't using a Sierra bullet but you aren't anywhere near MAX charge either (IIRC, you are using 4.3 gr) and your OAL is spot on for the Accurate data.

If you extend the OAL, you increase the case volume and probably need to increase the charge slightly just to achieve the same velocity. Remember, your original problem was that you didn't have enough velocity to cycle the gun and again, IIRC, you were using 3.8 gr and 1.120" OAL.

There is the potential issue that longer cartridges don't run up the feed ramp as well and, of course, there is the SAAMI limit of 1.169" and a more practical limit of whether the cartridge will fit in the magazine.

There are a lot of variables in reloading and one way of sorting them out is with a chronograph. You really need to know the muzzle velocity. If it is extraordinarily high, beyond what the load should deliver, your pressure is too high. You need to back off on charge or increase OAL. OTOH, if you get around 1000 fps with the load you are using, you are in the right ballpark.

I tend to go by what is written down in front of me and I have a downloaded copy of the Accurate manual. I would load exactly what you have and not give it a moment's thought.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...d_data_3.5.pdf

Mid-range, I like that!

Richard
I am not at all interested in going for max loads. I like mid range loads. My mid-range loads perform very well. That is why I selected the load details I am using. My fired cases are not showing signs like bulges. I am using Precision Delta 9mm, 115gn, FMJ, NOT plated, bullets.

The 9mm data I am targeting is from the load table you included in the link. I don't have a chrono, so I am not sure how to ever be able to judge FPS.

The data says my loads are good. Thanks!
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:22   #74
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In his case it didn't matter because he was using way to little powder.

Gpruitt54 most new reloaders make the opposite mistake and go for max loads. Had you tried that with your short OAL you would be talking about your blown up gun!
Actually, I don't understand the tendancy to go for max. To each his own. I am going for precision, and acheving smaller and smaller groupings. If I wanted a big ass punch, I get a 12 guage pump, or a baseball bat.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:43   #75
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Actually, I don't understand the tendancy to go for max. To each his own. I am going for precision, and acheving smaller and smaller groupings. If I wanted a big ass punch, I get a 12 guage pump, or a baseball bat.
Some folks will load fire breathing pistol ammo for hunting with 10mm, .357 Mag and .44 Mag. Personally, I'm in to mid-range target loads in .45 ACP. Something that is pleasant to shoot.

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Old 09-30-2012, 09:48   #76
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GP, reread what Fred posted that I highlighted in red. The industry "max" length is 1.169, and some magazine/pistol combinations will allow for an even longer COL. The minimum is just that, with the published load. You can always go longer as long as the COL will work in your barrel/magazine.

The best guideline is to first disassemble your pistol and use the barrel as a guide. Load your rounds to the longest COL that will pass the drop/plunk test for your barrel. Your round should drop into the chamber without any protrusion outside the rear of the chamber. (You can take a factory round, drop it in and look at how the case head seats into the rear of the chamber.)

Second, test that COL in your pistol's magazine. Load a round into the mag. The bullet should not scrape the inside of the magazine. If your COL passes both tests, you're at a good COL for that pistol/barrel combination.

The reason we always recommend you load to the longest COL is that doing so provides the most available volume inside the case where the pressure is developed during firing. Always remember that for any specific cartridge, less case volume equates to more pressure. Since your components and pistol combination will almost never be the same as the testing apparatus used to develop the published data, it is always best to allow yourself some leeway. Stretching the COL is effectively providing some relief for the pressure.

Once you've become satisfied with the round and are overly familiar with pressure signs, you can work on slowly reducing the COL, should you find a strong reason for doing so.

Personally, all my FMJ and LCN rounds are loaded to 1.14 - 1.15. That COL works in every 9mm that I own.
I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?
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Old 09-30-2012, 13:06   #77
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I think you are saying that I should always for the max OAL? Is that basically it?
YEs, the OAL in most manuals is a tested OAL or minimum. Going below that will increase pressures, loaded longer reduces pressures. So think of a longer OAL as insurance. My point about measuring a factory round is it's a dangerous assumption that it is correct or safe. Load a faster powder, like AA#2 to the top end & then load it at shorter OAL, you are pushing over pressure. Since most powders do NOT build pressure in a linear fashion, there is really no "a little over max". Some powders spike as you go over the top end, some spike badly enough to cause a KB (Clays, TG), so just plugging in a factory OAL can get you into trouble with wrong loads.
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Last edited by fredj338; 09-30-2012 at 13:08..
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:43   #78
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Every since I learned that a lack of a taper crimp was the reason I couldn't get my 10mm rounds to feed reliably in a LWD barrel I've started taper crimping all my calibers. No matter what caliber you use, if you get an aftermarket barrel it will have tighter tolerances requiring you to taper crimp. There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:55   #79
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There really isn't anything to tamper crimping, and it increases feed reliability and you won't have to be concerned with bullet seat back. Taper crimping is the way to go.
Taper crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back in a pistol. If you have bullet set back your sizer die is bad or you donít have it adjusted right.
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:30   #80
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I'm talking about set back that van occur when rechambering a carry load multiple times. Crimping helps prevent this although I personally haven't had a problem with that myself. I just rotate the round from the chamber for one that was in the magazine.

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