GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-04-2012, 08:39   #21
series1811
CLM Number
Enforcerator.
 
series1811's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Retired, but not expired.
Posts: 14,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Good post! Another way of saying it ... IMO ... is that Romney simply has continued his strategy of saying whatever it takes to appeal the audience at hand. Regardless of whether it conflicts 100% with what he said yesterday or 6 months ago or a year. He has absolutely no shame (not that many politicians do ... but he takes it to a whole new level). The man really has no character or shame to be able to say/claim with a straight face something 100% asymmetric with what he effectively said yesterday.

In summary Romney "won" the debate as he has no character. The sad thing is ... the vast vast majority think he "won" also ... But don't realize WHY they think that.
Well, Obama thanks you for seeing it that way. He was hoping someone would.
__________________
I sure miss the country I grew up in.
series1811 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:42   #22
ModGlock17
Senior Member
 
ModGlock17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lalaland USA
Posts: 2,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
... the vast vast majority think he "won" also ... But don't realize WHY they think that.
Here, I do think you are Projecting yourself on to others.

I've discussed the debate with many people this morning, face to face. Every one of them had a handful of specifics, why he won.

So what you are really saying is that Obama got knocked flat and you have no idea how. I'm ok with that. Hope Axelrod feels the same as you.

Last edited by ModGlock17; 10-04-2012 at 08:48..
ModGlock17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:49   #23
douggmc
Senior Member
 
douggmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
...
I've discussed the debate with many people this morning, face to face. Every one of them had a handful of specifics, why he won.
I won't dispute that. There are plenty of people that know policy details and agree with Romney's positions (even though they are still WAY to vague and without detail ... exactly HOW again is he going to do a 20% tax cut across board, add 2 trillion to defense spending, not cut medicare/medicaid/SS (arguably even increase spending), and NOT add dramatically to the debt? Clue: It is IMPOSSIBLE without assuming some magical/mythical growth and/or significant changes to deductions that primarily would impact middle class negatively). But for every one of these people in our circles who know the policies and are intelligent enough to parse them ... there are 10 that think Romney looked "more Presidential" or was "more energetic" or "had nicer hair" .... etc. To these folks, Romney "won" and might have been swayed.

edit: folks like Goaltender66 (post #10 above I believe) are doing thoughtful and legitimate analysis based on their beliefs on policy. While I don't AGREE with some of the beliefs, he is at least making information, policy based arguments. If we were a world full of Goaltender66 critical thinking skills (not necessarily of same conclusions though ) ... we would be in much better place. But instead .... we have Honey Boo Boo and Kim Kardashian voting.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-04-2012 at 08:55..
douggmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:53   #24
beforeobamabans
FYPM
 
beforeobamabans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Crossroads of America
Posts: 5,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaltender66 View Post
I'm not sure why the Libertarian Right keeps asking me to let Obama win.
It's a reach to attribute this to the entire Libertarian movement when it's one or two guys on PI promoting this aberrant view. I detest Obama and am in mourning over the damage he has done to this country. I have already stated on PI that I will hold my nose and vote for Romney, but man, the GOP really blew an opportunity to change things in a major way.
__________________
G17, G26, G30SF, Gen4 G23

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." Ben Franklin
beforeobamabans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 08:54   #25
douggmc
Senior Member
 
douggmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
...
So what you are really saying is that Obama got knocked flat and you have no idea how. I'm ok with that. Hope Axelrod feels the same as you.
Not at all what I'm saying. He got "knocked flat" based primarily on "feel good" types of analysis IMO (e.g., level of energy, aggressiveness, etc.) Romney won the battle for "low information" voters who vote based on stupid **** ... in other words.

Romney was simply MUCH better prepared in the technicalities and superficial things needed to effectively debate. Like he practiced for weeks. It looked like Obama practiced and prepared about 3 days and was just pissed he had to be there.

One pundit made an interesting comment last night that I think was good. It was that presidents (particularly during their first term) tend to live in a "bubble" of "yes men". As a result, they are well out of practice in challenging aggressive opposition. Romney took him off guard in this manner ... in that I don't think any single person has directly challenged Obama face to face like that (facts not necessarily withstanding ... it was perception that counted) since the 2008 election.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-04-2012 at 09:01..
douggmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:03   #26
JFrame
Senior Member
 
JFrame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mid-Atlantic, US of A
Posts: 32,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
I won't dispute that. There are plenty of people that know policy details and agree with Romney's positions (even though they are still WAY to vague and without detail ... exactly HOW again is he going to do a 20% tax cut across board, add 2 trillion to defense spending, not cut medicare/medicaid/SS (arguably even increase spending), and NOT add dramatically to the debt? Clue: It is IMPOSSIBLE without assuming some magical/mythical growth and/or significant changes to deductions that primarily would impact middle class negatively). But for every one of these people in our circles who know the policies and are intelligent enough to parse them ... there are 10 that think Romney looked "more Presidential" or was "more energetic" or "had nicer hair" .... etc. To these folks, Romney "won" and might have been swayed.

edit: folks like Goaltender66 (post #10 above I believe) are doing thoughtful and legitimate analysis based on their beliefs on policy. While I don't AGREE with some of the beliefs, he is at least making information, policy based arguments. If we were a world full of Goaltender66 critical thinking skills (not necessarily of same conclusions though ) ... we would be in much better place. But instead .... we have Honey Boo Boo and Kim Kardashian voting.
Speaking of critical thinking skills...

Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
I'll add that other left leaning broadcasting exists too (ala MSNBC), but no where as near as virulent as what you get non-stop from right wing media).

.
__________________
"When newspapers are controlled, it's amazing how ignorant and immune from pressure the government can be." -- Amartya Sen

--

Last edited by JFrame; 10-04-2012 at 09:04..
JFrame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:06   #27
douggmc
Senior Member
 
douggmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
Speaking of critical thinking skills...
.
Wow ... you're clever. You are officially classified as a "low information" voter now.

Do you actually think that is a "gotcha"?

Ironically ... that post was in response to your statement in that thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
...I got tired of having to "read between the lines" (when such lines were even made available) to discern even a glimmer of truth ...
.
That ... my friends ... is EXACTLY an illustration of a "low information" voter who lacks the ability (or maybe just desire ... but same effect) of thinking critically. They don't want to hear fact based news and have to "read between the lines" and make inferences and decisions to form their opinions. They would rather have a blatantly partisan media source like right-wing radio, fox news (or even MSNBC) GIVE them their opinions.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-04-2012 at 09:22..
douggmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:07   #28
JFrame
Senior Member
 
JFrame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mid-Atlantic, US of A
Posts: 32,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Wow ... you're clever. You are officially classified as a "low information" voter now.

Do you actually think that is a "gotcha"?

Why expend additional energy when one can just echo back the inane comments that expose someone for the leftist moonbat that they are?


.
__________________
"When newspapers are controlled, it's amazing how ignorant and immune from pressure the government can be." -- Amartya Sen

--
JFrame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 09:27   #29
douggmc
Senior Member
 
douggmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
Why expend additional energy when ...

.
Exactly ... which is why I've ignored the other probably 4 times(?) you've whipped that same quote of mine out on unrelated threads like you have some golden nugget "gotcha". It is hilariously lame (because it is only in your own mind a "gotcha") and not worth my time and energy ... as you noted. So ... perhaps I'll just stop responding to it again.

Debate me on something meaningful and topical and I'll respond. Otherwise/until then, I hereby banish you back to rube-ville and willl essentially ignore you.
douggmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:06   #30
Goaltender66
NRA GoldenEagle
 
Goaltender66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Under the cultural penumbra of DC
Posts: 14,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by beforeobamabans View Post
It's a reach to attribute this to the entire Libertarian movement when it's one or two guys on PI promoting this aberrant view.
Fair point, though I have heard it in other venues than GTPI. Regardless, I apologize for being overbroad.

Quote:
I detest Obama and am in mourning over the damage he has done to this country. I have already stated on PI that I will hold my nose and vote for Romney, but man, the GOP really blew an opportunity to change things in a major way.
The thing is, I don't know that a major change *can* be made given the facts on the ground. I would absolutely love for the vast majority of government to be cut down to nothing. Let me offer an anecdote:

I recently went through my passport renewal process. As part of the process I'm given the choice of the regular passport book, a passport card, or both. In talking with the clerk at the passport office I find out the card is a credit-card sized credential used only for land travel between the US and Canada or Mexico, or sea travel to those ports plus the Caribbean. It's useless for air travel (except as ID to board the plane, but it won't get you through customs.). I was asking why I would need this extra $30 card if I had a book. I was told "convenience."

Turns out that border control stopped allowing travellers across the Mexican/Canadian borders to simply use drivers licenses and birth certificates and started requiring passports. Frequent travellers started complaining about this, so in response the State Department applied a brand new level of bureaucracy and created an all-new RFID-enabled passport card. And while it's supposedly secure enough for ground travel, you can't use it for air travel...you have to have the full passport book.

To me this is yet one more example of bureaucracy existing to perpetuate itself. Instead of working to lower the cost of the passport book, they complicate the options with something only useful in limited, specific circumstances.

My point is that all of this crap isn't going to go away overnight. I would love to dismantle the entire US Department of Education, but the reality is that building full of bureaucrats isn't going anywhere any time soon. So instead, until we conservatives can change attitudes, why not try to transform the Dept of Ed from a jobs program for union teachers into something that can advocate for decent curricula in our schools? Then gradually reduce the role of that bureaucracy until it withers away.

I honestly can't think of another politically feasible way to accomplish a reduction in government on the scale that we need. As long as people like Trew2Life are demanding their bennies, we're kind of stuck in what we can do.
__________________
The US Air Force has started including tax protester literature in the emergency supplies of their aircraft. If the plane crashes in a remote area, the crew is instructed to read the pamphlets and Goalie will be along shortly to rebut them.
Goaltender66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:07   #31
whoflungdo
Senior Member
 
whoflungdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MS
Posts: 6,691
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Exactly ... which is why I've ignored the other probably 4 times(?) you've whipped that same quote of mine out on unrelated threads like you have some golden nugget "gotcha". It is hilariously lame (because it is only in your own mind a "gotcha") and not worth my time and energy ... as you noted. So ... perhaps I'll just stop responding to it again.

Debate me on something meaningful and topical and I'll respond. Otherwise/until then, I hereby banish you back to rube-ville and willl essentially ignore you.
Nice delusions of grandeur there Douggie.

JFRAME, I didn't know you were headed to DU...
__________________

GTDS Certified Member #9
whoflungdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:28   #32
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
I still won't vote for Romney because I don't trust his record and rhetoric but he did objectively win this debate.
And helping re-elect Obama is such a superior plan. . . .
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:31   #33
Glock30Eric
.45 ACP
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjv View Post
And helping re-elect Obama is such a superior plan. . . .
Thank you for trashing the Republic of America as you want to incorporate communism system by telling people who to vote for. You are very awesome!!! You are helping to destruct the America as we know with either Obama or Romney! High five!!

Seriously, please don't tell a person if he doesn't want to vote Romney then he is helping Obama to be re-elected.

I'm going to vote Ron Paul or Gary Johnson because both represents me better than Obama or Romney. I am living to the republic and not in accordance with your lesser of two games which it is the bottom line of a communism system or even worse a tyranny system.

Enjoy the America as you have know while it last.

Last edited by Glock30Eric; 10-04-2012 at 10:36..
Glock30Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:33   #34
JFrame
Senior Member
 
JFrame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mid-Atlantic, US of A
Posts: 32,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoflungdo View Post
Nice delusions of grandeur there Douggie.

JFRAME, I didn't know you were headed to DU...



Leftists tend to ignore those they cannot defeat -- and they especially hate being hoisted on their own petard.


.
__________________
"When newspapers are controlled, it's amazing how ignorant and immune from pressure the government can be." -- Amartya Sen

--
JFrame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:34   #35
JFrame
Senior Member
 
JFrame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mid-Atlantic, US of A
Posts: 32,306
double
__________________
"When newspapers are controlled, it's amazing how ignorant and immune from pressure the government can be." -- Amartya Sen

--

Last edited by JFrame; 10-04-2012 at 10:38..
JFrame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:35   #36
douggmc
Senior Member
 
douggmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaltender66 View Post
Fair point, though I have heard it in other venues than GTPI. Regardless, I apologize for being overbroad.


The thing is, I don't know that a major change *can* be made given the facts on the ground. I would absolutely love for the vast majority of government to be cut down to nothing. Let me offer an anecdote:

I recently went through my passport renewal process. As part of the process I'm given the choice of the regular passport book, a passport card, or both. In talking with the clerk at the passport office I find out the card is a credit-card sized credential used only for land travel between the US and Canada or Mexico, or sea travel to those ports plus the Caribbean. It's useless for air travel (except as ID to board the plane, but it won't get you through customs.). I was asking why I would need this extra $30 card if I had a book. I was told "convenience."

Turns out that border control stopped allowing travellers across the Mexican/Canadian borders to simply use drivers licenses and birth certificates and started requiring passports. Frequent travellers started complaining about this, so in response the State Department applied a brand new level of bureaucracy and created an all-new RFID-enabled passport card. And while it's supposedly secure enough for ground travel, you can't use it for air travel...you have to have the full passport book.

To me this is yet one more example of bureaucracy existing to perpetuate itself. Instead of working to lower the cost of the passport book, they complicate the options with something only useful in limited, specific circumstances.

My point is that all of this crap isn't going to go away overnight. I would love to dismantle the entire US Department of Education, but the reality is that building full of bureaucrats isn't going anywhere any time soon. So instead, until we conservatives can change attitudes, why not try to transform the Dept of Ed from a jobs program for union teachers into something that can advocate for decent curricula in our schools? Then gradually reduce the role of that bureaucracy until it withers away.

I honestly can't think of another politically feasible way to accomplish a reduction in government on the scale that we need. As long as people like Trew2Life are demanding their bennies, we're kind of stuck in what we can do.
I appreciate and share some of your disenfranchisement with wasteful spending and bureaucratic crap. Your anecdote about the passport is spot on. I would say that I don't agree specifically with your D. of Ed. opinion though.

With that said though, both of those things (like doing away with the ~250 million dollar funding/year to "Big Bird") won't do SQUAT to our budget issues. It is simply mathematically impossible. You alluded to "bennies" though ... and I'll assume you mean SS/Medicare/Medicaid. Now THAT is the big bucket of spending that is meaningful ... along with DoD.

ONLY these two areas (entitlements and DoD) make up between 2/3 and 3/4 of our budget. We could cut the the rest of expenditures (25 - 30 of spending), and leave entitlements and DoD as is ... and STILL be running a deficit. So ... while it feels good to complain about D. of Ed., passports, and "Big Bird" ... it is nothing more than an illusion and meaningless.

I'm of the opinion that we need to:
a) Drastically cut DoD. Call me crazy ... but I'd be OK with a budget that doubles the next highest country's instead of one that is more than the next 5 combined. We could cut DoD spending by 50% and still be 2x more than the next country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_expenditures I'm ex-Military FWIW. I believe in appropriate use of military force and in peace through power ... i.e., walk softly and carry a big stick. But the MiC in this country is ridiculous and the false patriotic propaganda pushed by so many to perpetuate it "discusting" We need smart DoD spending. Not quantity over quality.

b) Means test SS. Sorry ... if you don't need it, you don't get it. In other words, on a scale based on net worth/income ... you index down the eligibility to receive SS benefits. This sucks ... I know. Somebody is gonna feel pain in some manner or another ... no way around it.

c) Raise SS eligibility age based on a scientific lifespan index assessment that is adjusted periodically. Dropping dead at 67 a couple years after you retire is not as common as it used to be. Thank Medicare! Nor can can we expect to retire at 62 (unless you've smartly self-funded your retirement ... which is great then you can) when we expect to live to 90+. So ... need to account for longer lifespans.

d) Return tax brackets to those during mid-90s. We are disingenuous to only take a spending cut approach to solve our problems. Hey .. after all ... a top bracket of 39% is way better than what we had during those wonderful booming 1950s we always refer to .. right? Those great days of economic growth and thriving middle class? Cough .. cough: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=213

Last edited by douggmc; 10-04-2012 at 11:01..
douggmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:36   #37
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock30Eric View Post

Seriously, don't tell a person if he doesn't want to vote Romney then he is helping Obama.
You can vote for anyone you want but the FACT is that only one of two people will become the next president.

If you don't like Obama, but you don't vote for the ONLY person who can replace him, you ARE helping Obama win.

Sorry if the truth hurts. .
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:37   #38
JFrame
Senior Member
 
JFrame's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Mid-Atlantic, US of A
Posts: 32,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
Exactly ... which is why I've ignored the other probably 4 times(?) you've whipped that same quote of mine out on unrelated threads like you have some golden nugget "gotcha". It is hilariously lame (because it is only in your own mind a "gotcha") and not worth my time and energy ... as you noted. So ... perhaps I'll just stop responding to it again.

Debate me on something meaningful and topical and I'll respond. Otherwise/until then, I hereby banish you back to rube-ville and willl essentially ignore you.

Great! I love it when leftists give me immunity!

(I also love that you're trying to laugh this off, but I can virtually see your teeth clenched in rage every time you get your idiotic words thrown back at you... )



.
__________________
"When newspapers are controlled, it's amazing how ignorant and immune from pressure the government can be." -- Amartya Sen

--
JFrame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:45   #39
Glock30Eric
.45 ACP
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjv View Post
You can vote for anyone you want but the FACT is that only one of two people will become the next president.

If you don't like Obama, but you don't vote for the ONLY person who can replace him, you ARE helping Obama win.

Sorry if the truth hurts. .
You are feeding to that system: Only Obama or Romney will be the next President. You are trashing the US Constitution and you are feeding to that crap. Sorry that truth is more painful for you.

We are beyond of no return. Therefore I couldn't see any ways to reverse the system right now, so it is either you are feeding to it or to be opposite to it and stand up for the right cause.

Enjoy your cheerleadering for the destruction of America as we know.

Last edited by Glock30Eric; 10-04-2012 at 10:46..
Glock30Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2012, 10:45   #40
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaltender66 View Post

The thing is, I don't know that a major change *can* be made given the facts on the ground. I would absolutely love for the vast majority of government to be cut down to nothing.
Unfortunately it takes time to turn things around. The Ron Paul supporters seem to believe that if Paul was elected, he would cut the budget in half on the first day and all would be fine.

But it doesn't work like that. When you dig a deep hole over several decades, it can take a long long time to climb out of that hole.

A person can run up thousands in CC debt in a short period of time. But it might take years to pay off that debt. The USA is in the same situation. We don't have any free (discretionary) money to "pay down" the debt.

Even cutting spending is a difficult task because of legal obligation that were incurred with that spending. Sure there is some low hanging fruit (PBS, Grants to study the sex life of the fruit fly). But the serious money will require total restructuring of programs such as SS and medicare, which no one has the guts to do. Especially Congress! And the President can't accomplish those types of changes without Congress. . .
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -
wjv is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:49.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 999
320 Members
679 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31