GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-02-2012, 07:20   #126
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
Anarchy is the epitome of freedom

an∑ar∑chy/ˈanərkē/Noun:

1.A state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

2.Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.


Anarchy, by definition, HAS no law. Let that marinate for a second.



I don't see that here.

gov∑ern∑ment/ˈgəvər(n)mənt/Noun:

1.The governing body of a nation, state, or community.

2.The system by which a nation, state, or community is governed.


In case you didn't notice, YOU'RE going from a constitutional republic to an anarchy, by definitions alone.



Yes, it does, and it starts with those who practice it. Yes, you'll argue that you're free to harm yourself if you want to. Ok, fine, then, destroy yourself. Who cares? But to say you can get married and be seen by our children as something that is good and should be emulated, NO. Gay marriage is a way of society saying, "You're good for our society and we want you to raise children to be like you." HELL no.



None of what you mentioned are psychiatric, sexual disorders.



Only in an anarchy do people have the "right to do whatever they want". As long as there is government, there WILL be restrictions.



A little history on the Gadsden. "Join or Die". Nothing individualistic about this idea. You don't know what you're talking about.

It shows you do not understand government, and have never done any real studies on it. Get back to us once you find an Anarchy that realistically provides more freedom than a constitutional republic. I don't even think freetown of Christinia does.

As for the rest, you're throwing insults out because you're called out. At this point you're too embarrassed you've been schooled on how liberties and freedom works.

As a very wise man once said "You can't see the forest from the trees, and you can't smell your own **** on your knees." Stands true to you.

Last edited by OctoberRust; 10-02-2012 at 07:21..
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 07:23   #127
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
It shows you do not understand government, and have never done any real studies on it. Get back to us once you find an Anarchy that realistically provides more freedom than a constitutional republic. I don't even think freetown of Christinia does.

As for the rest, you're throwing insults out because you're called out. At this point you're too embarrassed you've been schooled on how liberties and freedom works.

As a very wise man once said "You can't see the forest from the trees, and you can't smell your own **** on your knees." Stands true to you.
Who am I throwing out insults to?
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 16:49   #128
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
Anarchy is the epitome of freedom

an∑ar∑chy/ˈanərkē/Noun:

1.A state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

2.Absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.


Anarchy, by definition, HAS no law. Let that marinate for a second.

.....
The concept of anarchy is that everyone is free to do as he or she likes. That includes getting together and killing or driving out anyone the majority object to enough.

The concept of being free to do whatever you want has virtually no relationship to freedom as in a free state. There it means freedom from despotism or oppression by government and the "freedoms" of bills of rights are effectively precise constraints on government oppression of its citizens. The only simple freedom is the freedom of religion. The others are freedoms to take action against the government by petitioning, speaking against the government, organizing resistance, keeping and bearing arms and so on. Who or what else other than a government would have the power to prevent these freedoms? Who or what do we need to defend our freedoms against?

October Rust and QNman, dead right!

In general, if I am to be forced to choose, I would settle for polygamy over homosexual marriage.

Beware Owner,
Your nonsense about homosexuality is just that. Homosexuals, male or female, are no more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. Pedophiles are pedophiles and can be attracted to boys or girls or both. For choice, I would execute them.

As to whether homosexuality is a choice or not, homosexuality can be found in all species of domesticated animals and birds and probably in all wild ones as well, but the observation is harder there. Animals don't make "choices" of this kind - they just do what is in their nature to do. When it comes to humans, most humans want a loving relationship and that applies to homosexuals as much as to heterosexuals. Why would any one who actually had the choice choose to be homosexual when it reduces the chance of finding a partner by such a large amount? When the facts contradict your theories you need to re-work your theories to fit the facts.

Engish
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 18:17   #129
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,717
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post

As to whether homosexuality is a choice or not, homosexuality can be found in all species of domesticated animals and birds and probably in all wild ones as well, but the observation is harder there. Animals don't make "choices" of this kind - they just do what is in their nature to do.
Engish
That is correct. And since homosexuality occurs as part of nature, that makes it "natural".
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 23:52   #130
SDDL-UP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,040
Uranium and anthrax are also "natural" - doesn't mean they're good for you.
__________________
"Arm yourself, arm a friend!"
SDDL-UP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 06:47   #131
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,295
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
That is correct. And since homosexuality occurs as part of nature, that makes it "natural".
Yes, entirely natural and it seems to be amongst the things that can go wrong with the genetic or developmental system without significant detriment to the species. It is hard to see how it is advantgeous to the individual or the species but that does not mean that it does not have some species benefit to have non reproductive members. For individuals with the consciousness to want children of their own and for parents with homosexual children it is a considerable sadness.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 11:35   #132
kensb2
pistol n00b
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Apache, OK
Posts: 1,464
I'm curious how people see this side of the coin: Being married, in it's current traditional form (1 man, 1 woman) allows you certain benefits. One of these is Healthcare benefits. I am allowed to have my wife on my insurance plan through work, because they allow it. In the case of my employer, they also allow 'domestic partners' to have this same option. Many businesses do not, because they don't view a domestic partnership/civil union the same as a marriage. Should gay marriage/poly laws get passed, are employers now OBLIGATED to offer those benefits to everyone?

As an aside, I personally believe that the institution of marriage is a religious one. If one gets married within the confines of a church (or by some form of clergy) before God (Allah, w/e), that is different than a 'civil union' (outside the church). I think someone's freedom to engage in a gay/poly marriage is one that should be afforded by the church (only if it so chooses!), not the gov't. It is also none of my business, but I retain the right to think that it's morally wrong, should I so choose. I think anyone in a civil union should be afforded the same tax breaks, etc that a married couple gets. I was brought up in a northern Baptist church, my dad was a deacon for many years, and both of my BILs are/were preachers. It has taken me a long time to come to those conclusions about how freedoms (should) apply to us, since you get indoctrinated to certain ways of believing when brought up in that atmosphere. Lastly, by my own above definitions, my marriage would technically be a civil union since I was married by a judge in a courthouse and not by a clergymen.

Last edited by kensb2; 10-03-2012 at 12:12.. Reason: mental stuttering
kensb2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 11:58   #133
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Cannibalism, infanticide, rape, eating your own doodoo and vomit are also "natural"...
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:30   #134
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
Cannibalism, infanticide, rape, eating your own doodoo and vomit are also "natural"...


Here we go back to the beginning of the argument again.

I think eating your own "doodoo" as you put it, is legal. I'm not 100% sure though.. It'd be silly to make it illegal, all it hurts is yourself.

Comparing rape to homosexuality? Last time I checked, when someone rapes another person, that carries a victim.

Let's go back to eating our own doodoo and vomit though. Who's being hurt by that again?

Just think about it. No need to reply. You just went back about 4-5 pages in this thread and started from the beginning, which we have already covered.
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:37   #135
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
Here we go back to the beginning of the argument again.

I think eating your own "doodoo" as you put it, is legal. I'm not 100% sure though.. It'd be silly to make it illegal, all it hurts is yourself.

Comparing rape to homosexuality? Last time I checked, when someone rapes another person, that carries a victim.

Let's go back to eating our own doodoo and vomit though. Who's being hurt by that again?

Just think about it. No need to reply. You just went back about 4-5 pages in this thread and started from the beginning, which we have already covered.
My point is that using what you see in nature as an excuse is immature at best.
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:43   #136
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
My point is that using what you see in nature as an excuse is immature at best.

And comparing rape to homosexuality is not immature, at best?
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:53   #137
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
And comparing rape to homosexuality is not immature, at best?
No, sir, it puts the "natural" argument in perspective.
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 12:57   #138
Dragoon189
Senior Member
 
Dragoon189's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 260
If a man wants 6 angry wives instead of one that let him have it. Heck, women can have as many husbands too....I foresee no good coming from either so I am happy with my one wife.
__________________
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." ó George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788
Dragoon189 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 13:16   #139
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
No, sir, it puts the "natural" argument in perspective.

"Natural" is almost as subjective as "normal". Hell, they may even intertwine.
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 13:32   #140
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
"Natural" is almost as subjective as "normal". Hell, they may even intertwine.
Natural as in what you see in nature. It astounds me that people want to lower themselves to the point where they are like intellectually inferior animals.
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism

Last edited by Beware Owner; 10-03-2012 at 13:33..
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 14:12   #141
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
Natural as in what you see in nature. It astounds me that people want to lower themselves to the point where they are like intellectually inferior animals.

Then homosexuality would be natural. Since you do see it out in nature.

Doesn't matter if it's natural or not, guns are not natural. You can't find those off the gun-tree. Alcohol is not natural, yet you can walk into any grocery store and buy that. Natural is irrelevant, which is what I believe you were getting at to begin with.
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 14:17   #142
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
Then homosexuality would be natural. Since you do see it out in nature.

Doesn't matter if it's natural or not, guns are not natural. You can't find those off the gun-tree. Alcohol is not natural, yet you can walk into any grocery store and buy that. Natural is irrelevant, which is what I believe you were getting at to begin with.
Yes, that's my point, observing something in nature and using that as an excuse for what you do is retarded.
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 15:08   #143
IvanVic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
No, sir, it puts the "natural" argument in perspective.
No, it doesn't. Your argument is stupid, plain and simple, and I'm against gay marriage.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
IvanVic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 15:43   #144
Chronos
Senior Member
 
Chronos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by OctoberRust View Post
It shows you do not understand government, and have never done any real studies on it. Get back to us once you find an Anarchy that realistically provides more freedom than a constitutional republic. I don't even think freetown of Christinia does.
Freedom is not "provided by the state," since freedom is an absence of forced coercion, and the defining tool of the state is coercion itself. Try "not buying government services" with your income, and then let me know how free you are (if they'll let you use a computer from your cell block).

If you propose a government with the size and scope of the original USA, you are already at least 90% to anarchy. And if you realize that modern, fully developed markets can easily supply many services that may have initially been a problem for markets 200 years ago, you are at least 99% to anarchy. At some point, the distinction between a limited state and a non-existent one becomes unimportant.
__________________
If you've already accepted that "violence against the innocent" is a morally legitimate means of funding the government, who are you to complain when the majority apprporiates your legacy and sells your children into a lifetime of debt slavery?
Chronos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 16:01   #145
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
No, sir, it puts the "natural" argument in perspective.
"Natural" is what can be observed in nature. As such it can be something characteristic of a very small minority of individuals. For what it is worth, "normal" is something which can be observed in a majority.

The purpose of using a natural example as the basis of argument in this case is to show that homosexuality is not a "choice" by an individual equivalent to deciding that Pepsi is superior to Coke but something which, by whatever means is built in to the individual and as far as we know cannot be changed.

You don't like the idea of comparing ourselves to intellectually inferior animals but if we use a little intelligence and knowledge it can be very informative. Our closest living relatives are the chimpanzees and for medical experimentation the results found on them are most like the results found on humans where those found on rats, for example, are often different. But our social and sexual systems are very different from chimpanzees because of the environmental forces acting on us since we diverged from our common ancestor. Rabbits are rather further separated from humans, but are still relatives which are useful for much medical experimentation. But rabbits do eat their own doo doo and fall ill if they are prevented from doing so. Why should that be? Because they live on hard to digest grasses which they digest with the aid of bacteria in their guts. But the bacteria don't have enough time to do so and so the rabbit needs to pass the same food through its gut twice. Cattle have the same problem but they have evolved a second stomach and regurgitate partly digested grass to chew it again after it has beed partly digested. This is what we know as chewing the cud. You might like to think of it as eating their own vomit!

So, we have to know enough not to compare our social systems to those of chimpanzees or our digestive systems to rabbits or cattle but otherwise our biochemistries are very similar.

When we can see such commonality across the animal world then something such as homosexuality, which probably can be seen in every species of mammal and bird we care to study, obviously has the same root cause as it does in humans. As such it cannot possibly be a conscious choice of what is most fun or however you might think of it. This is not lowering ourselves to equality with animals except in those things in which we are equal. Where we differ is that we have the ability to think and gain knowledge in the form of theories which we can refine or discard as facts dictate. Some of us have the intelligence and knowledge to understand that. Others are either too dumb or too incapable of seeing past their religious beliefs to do so. In this case it is you who is denying the most basic thing that makes you different from other animals - your ability to think and so discover the nature of things you can observe and learn about.

Since you are capable of using a computer on the internet and writing as you do and presumably are able to chew gum at the same time, you can't simply be too dumb. The information is all around you but only you can decide to make the effort to study it with an open mind. Opening your mind is far harder than studying, and if your mind remains closed you will continue to deny the evidence no matter how much you study. It takes a kind of mental courage to discover facts which are at odds with your existing beliefs and then accept that the facts are facts and so discard the belief.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2012, 12:24   #146
Beware Owner
NOT a victim.
 
Beware Owner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
No, it doesn't. Your argument is stupid, plain and simple, and I'm against gay marriage.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
No need to be disrespectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by English View Post
"Natural" is what can be observed in nature. As such it can be something characteristic of a very small minority of individuals. For what it is worth, "normal" is something which can be observed in a majority.

The purpose of using a natural example as the basis of argument in this case is to show that homosexuality is not a "choice" by an individual equivalent to deciding that Pepsi is superior to Coke but something which, by whatever means is built in to the individual and as far as we know cannot be changed.

You don't like the idea of comparing ourselves to intellectually inferior animals but if we use a little intelligence and knowledge it can be very informative. Our closest living relatives are the chimpanzees and for medical experimentation the results found on them are most like the results found on humans where those found on rats, for example, are often different. But our social and sexual systems are very different from chimpanzees because of the environmental forces acting on us since we diverged from our common ancestor. Rabbits are rather further separated from humans, but are still relatives which are useful for much medical experimentation. But rabbits do eat their own doo doo and fall ill if they are prevented from doing so. Why should that be? Because they live on hard to digest grasses which they digest with the aid of bacteria in their guts. But the bacteria don't have enough time to do so and so the rabbit needs to pass the same food through its gut twice. Cattle have the same problem but they have evolved a second stomach and regurgitate partly digested grass to chew it again after it has beed partly digested. This is what we know as chewing the cud. You might like to think of it as eating their own vomit!

So, we have to know enough not to compare our social systems to those of chimpanzees or our digestive systems to rabbits or cattle but otherwise our biochemistries are very similar.

When we can see such commonality across the animal world then something such as homosexuality, which probably can be seen in every species of mammal and bird we care to study, obviously has the same root cause as it does in humans. As such it cannot possibly be a conscious choice of what is most fun or however you might think of it. This is not lowering ourselves to equality with animals except in those things in which we are equal. Where we differ is that we have the ability to think and gain knowledge in the form of theories which we can refine or discard as facts dictate. Some of us have the intelligence and knowledge to understand that. Others are either too dumb or too incapable of seeing past their religious beliefs to do so. In this case it is you who is denying the most basic thing that makes you different from other animals - your ability to think and so discover the nature of things you can observe and learn about.

Since you are capable of using a computer on the internet and writing as you do and presumably are able to chew gum at the same time, you can't simply be too dumb. The information is all around you but only you can decide to make the effort to study it with an open mind. Opening your mind is far harder than studying, and if your mind remains closed you will continue to deny the evidence no matter how much you study. It takes a kind of mental courage to discover facts which are at odds with your existing beliefs and then accept that the facts are facts and so discard the belief.

English
There's proof that nobody is born gay, I don't believe it to be something they can't help. There's nothing but inconclusive assumptions and suppositions when attemption to prove it, as even gay scientists end up in frustration with their inability to prove it's an inborn trait. Animals lick their bottoms after they poop, and this can be seen in many species, can you help yourself NOT to do the same? That's the point, we don't do everything animals do, we choose to do as we will. Using "nature" as an excuse is, honestly, pretty denigrating and regressive to the human race. Last time I checked, I don't see cows driving cars or mosquitoes pooping in the toilet. If you want to be like an animal, then you should get off of your computer right now and go live in the forest. Then you'll be one with nature. Tell me, why do we call pedophiles perverts and not gays? What is the difference between their preferences?
__________________
Free men have arms; slaves do not. Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.
Criminals for Gun Control
Myth: Gun Control Reduces Crime
Homegrown Terrorism
Beware Owner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 00:58   #147
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,717
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beware Owner View Post
Tell me, why do we call pedophiles perverts and not gays? What is the difference between their preferences?
Children can not give consent. That's it.

Again
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 01:09   #148
DOC44
Senior Member
 
DOC44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,727
OP, What's Next?

Julia will be able to marry her cat.

Doc44
__________________
Have Gun Will Travel
DOC44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 01:24   #149
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,717
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOC44 View Post
OP, What's Next?

Julia will be able to marry her cat.

Doc44
*sigh* Cats can't give consent.
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 01:43   #150
jlavallee
Senior Member
 
jlavallee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
*sigh* Cats can't give consent.
There is no talking logic to many on this board, you can state the obvious as you've done but the core issue is that a lot of the folks here can't accept that other adults choose to live differently and they need to mind their own business.
__________________
Someday, I may be found lying dead in a ditch somewhere, but Iíll be lying in a pile of brass.

Track bills in Congress and tell politicians your opinion. www.popvox.com
jlavallee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:19.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,461
446 Members
1,015 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42