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Old 10-08-2012, 09:06   #51
SDGlock23
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I've seen the video of the girl killing the hog. The results in that video are the exact reason a 40S&W should not be used. She had to use the entire magazine. Pumping round after round into a game animal is unethical. Also there is a significant difference between a 40S&W in a compact, and a warm handloaded 10mm in an extended 6" barrel IMO. In this format the 10mm beats out the 357Mag. and is moving into lower end 41 Mag territory.
Yes she wasn't what I would call the best shot in the world either, it was her accuracy that called for the extra shots. I wouldn't have used the .40 in that situation myself, but I sure wouldn't have chose the 10mm either. Sure there is a difference between the .40 and 10mm but not like most make it out to be. It's understandable if one is shooting a small .40 throwing a 180gr @ 950 fps vs a hot 10mm in a 6" bbl @ 1300+ fps.

My G35 (5.3" bbl) easily throws a 180gr bullet @ 1200 fps using the right powder. When I drop in the 6" KKM G24 bbl I'm knocking on 1300 fps as well. I could claim that my .40 is in lower end .41 Mag territory too, but it's not a .41 Mag, just like the 10mm isn't...and both at their best would be a very lightly loaded .41 Mag. 10mm wins out on capacity verses the .357 (and all revolvers) but they're more or less about identical in the power dept. I've chronographed 180gr .357 Mag (6" bbl) at over 1300 fps w/H110, which is about the same as warm 10mm but with much higher sectional density.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:12   #52
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I'm considering taking my 21SF this year as my Bowhunting side arm, ( I do have a 23 & 27) but we have had frequent bear visit's..not to hijack the thread...but what would you take considering a potential run in with a black bear?
The 23 does not have night sight's but does have a TLR1.
The 27 has night sigh'ts but is a Gen 1... I can also take the TLR1 off and put it on the 21SF.
We had one of the guy's have a run in with a bear, and no matter how much racket he made, that bear would not leave the base of his tree. After that bear milled around at his leisure...he finally waddled off...and our buddy made it back to camp a bit rattled. He only had a 1/2 mile walk...more like sprint. I don't want to be toting a 12G. TIA for any suggestions...and I apologize to the OP...even though it's somewhat still on track. Large game, handgun options...specific to what is owned.
Your Buffalo Bore ammo should serve you very well. I would also add, in the G23, I would load up with either the 180gr Hornady XTP or get some 180gr Gold Dot from Underwoods, might be your best shot if you don't handload. http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw...ntboxof50.aspx

For the .45, probably 230gr +P Hornady XTP or the Underwoods 230gr +P Gold Dot http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp2...ntboxof50.aspx

If you have an aftermarket barrel, buy some .45 Super from Underwoods, that would be your best bet.

XTP's don't expand the largest, but they are very consistent and penetrate deeply as well.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:32   #53
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Originally Posted by Yankee2718 View Post
Both are legal. Either will work in the right situation with the proper application.
I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:28   #54
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I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
There are a lot of people who kill whitetail deer with the puny 9mm. Check out hipowers and handguns. That guy has shot quite a bit of deer using a 9mm hi power.

A lot of people list thr .357 as the baseline for deer. A 125 grain .357 magnum from a 4 inch barrel has a claimed muzzle velocity around 1450fps. Everyone know that is from a pressure barrel so you're talking 1350ish from a revolver. Add 2 inches and you make the claimed 1450ish with a big, heavy, gun.

9mm ammunition can easily be loaded to 1300-1350 fps. Watch tnoutdoors9 video of the 124 +p+ gold dot. That made 1300 fps. Out of a 17 that same load will be in the 1325-1350 ball park. Use an XTP and I think it'll work just fine at close range.
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Old 10-08-2012, 13:20   #55
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I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
Somehow people trust the 9mm with their lives, depending on it to stop violent assailants but it can't kill a deer? The 9mm is more than fine for a deer. A deep penetrating round properly placed will have no trouble taking a deer humanely, especially within 20yds as Yankee has said.

If one doesn't have the ability to take a deer with a 9mm they shouldn't bother hunting at all.
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Old 10-08-2012, 14:01   #56
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Originally Posted by Yankee2718 View Post
There are a lot of people who kill whitetail deer with the puny 9mm. Check out hipowers and handguns. That guy has shot quite a bit of deer using a 9mm hi power.

A lot of people list thr .357 as the baseline for deer. A 125 grain .357 magnum from a 4 inch barrel has a claimed muzzle velocity around 1450fps. Everyone know that is from a pressure barrel so you're talking 1350ish from a revolver. Add 2 inches and you make the claimed 1450ish with a big, heavy, gun.

9mm ammunition can easily be loaded to 1300-1350 fps. Watch tnoutdoors9 video of the 124 +p+ gold dot. That made 1300 fps. Out of a 17 that same load will be in the 1325-1350 ball park. Use an XTP and I think it'll work just fine at close range.
I have seen the end result of someone doing that. It was in the XD forums. A guy was proud of himself that he killed at fawn with his XD 9mm. It only took him half a dozen shots to do it. Why on earth would you do that to an animal on purpose?

I once was forced to kill a medium sized dog with a 9mm. It screamed and yelped before it died, and it took several hits to do it. It did not die well. These were solid heart long shots at nearly point blank range as it had me cornered. However, it was the only round I had at that moment. I know people think the 9mm is the be all and end all of rounds. It isn't.
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Old 10-08-2012, 14:09   #57
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My G20 (2nd gen) is my woods carry and has taken 2 whitetails. I would for sure take my 40 over my 9 if those were my choices.
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:17   #58
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I have seen the end result of someone doing that. It was in the XD forums. A guy was proud of himself that he killed at fawn with his XD 9mm. It only took him half a dozen shots to do it. Why on earth would you do that to an animal on purpose?

I once was forced to kill a medium sized dog with a 9mm. It screamed and yelped before it died, and it took several hits to do it. It did not die well. These were solid heart long shots at nearly point blank range as it had me cornered. However, it was the only round I had at that moment. I know people think the 9mm is the be all and end all of rounds. It isn't.
Everything kicks, screams, and yelps when it is dying. Even game animals shot with high power rifles. Killing is killing. This humane kill bull **** is just something people started spewing when PETA showed up. There is nothing noble or humane about killing something. People will ***** whine and complain about someone handgun hunting with a 9/40, but have no qualms about shooting an animal with an arrow.

If you ask me, while we're talking about the humanity of a kill, bow hunting is just plain stupid then. That's the most inhumane way to kill an animal. The mechanism for death is hemmorhage. An animal will be kicking and screaming for sometimes minutes after a bow shot, yet there is nothing wrong with that. How about all the bow hunters that wound animals and never find them. Ever seen a deer running around with a broken shaft in its thigh? I have. People even hunt elk and bear with bows. But that somehow is more humane than using a .40 handgun that produces both more penetration and foot pounds of energy with the proper bullet selection.
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:36   #59
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Originally Posted by Yankee2718 View Post
Everything kicks, screams, and yelps when it is dying. Even game animals shot with high power rifles. Killing is killing. This humane kill bull **** is just something people started spewing when PETA showed up. There is nothing noble or humane about killing something. People will ***** whine and complain about someone handgun hunting with a 9/40, but have no qualms about shooting an animal with an arrow.

If you ask me, while we're talking about the humanity of a kill, bow hunting is just plain stupid then. That's the most inhumane way to kill an animal. The mechanism for death is hemmorhage. An animal will be kicking and screaming for sometimes minutes after a bow shot, yet there is nothing wrong with that. How about all the bow hunters that wound animals and never find them. Ever seen a deer running around with a broken shaft in its thigh? I have. People even hunt elk and bear with bows. But that somehow is more humane than using a .40 handgun that produces both more penetration and foot pounds of energy with the proper bullet selection.
The argument about taking large game with a 9mm makes about as much sense as hunting one with a Jennings .25 I suppose it holds still enough, that round can probably kill most things, right?

The point, is whenever possible to make a clean kill. Causing needless suffering is not about sportsmanship, or the sign of a good hunter.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:07   #60
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The argument about taking large game with a 9mm makes about as much sense as hunting one with a Jennings .25 I suppose it holds still enough, that round can probably kill most things, right?

The point, is whenever possible to make a clean kill. Causing needless suffering is not about sportsmanship, or the sign of a good hunter.
Yea, no it doesn't make the same amount of sense as shooting the animal with a .25. The .25 lacks the penetration ability and has a smaller crush volume. A double lung shot with a 9mm or .40 is as clean of a kill as any. If hunting was about the most humane method available only head shots would be taken. As was said, if the animal can be taken with a bow it can be taken with the 9mm or .40 just the same. People take hogs with dogs and a knife, guessing that a good shot with a 9mm or .40 is a bit less stressful for the animal than a couple of bay dogs circling while catch dogs jump on only to wait for the hunter to arrive and slice your throat. Or maybe trapping is humane...

Point is, the deer can be taken responsibly with a 9mm or .40 if the hunter refuses to take a shot that is above his/her capability or the cartidges.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:17   #61
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Originally Posted by Yankee2718 View Post
A Glock 17 or a Glock 23? Either would accompany my .30-06. Maybe use it if I was presented a shot under 20 yards.
Neither.
Personally I wouldn't consider anything less than a 357 mag or a 10mm for deer.

44 mag would be my handgun caliber of choice for close range work.
They hit something like a 30 30 carbine close up.

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Old 10-08-2012, 16:22   #62
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The argument about taking large game with a 9mm makes about as much sense as hunting one with a Jennings .25 I suppose it holds still enough, that round can probably kill most things, right?

The point, is whenever possible to make a clean kill. Causing needless suffering is not about sportsmanship, or the sign of a good hunter.
My point is that no one thinks twice about using a bow and arrow, but using a .40 caliber handgun makes you an inhumane sob. If a 20 gram arrow at 315 fps can kill a deer, a 180 grain XTP at 1000 fps will too.

A poacher can kill a deer with a .22LR. I'm not advocating the handgun as a pirmary weapon. It's for short range applications. Im not pulling it the G23 for a 55 yard broadside shot.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:35   #63
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My point is that no one thinks twice about using a bow and arrow, but using a .40 caliber handgun makes you an inhumane sob. If a 20 gram arrow at 315 fps can kill a deer, a 180 grain XTP at 1000 fps will too.

A poacher can kill a deer with a .22LR. I'm not advocating the handgun as a pirmary weapon. It's for short range applications. Im not pulling it the G23 for a 55 yard broadside shot.
A poacher can take one by shooting it through the eye with a .22lr. I know, because my grandfather kept food on the table durring the Depression that way. However, it isn't the Depression. Adeqauate hunting weapons and ammo are not outrageously expensive and available.

The smallest semi-auto I would take for a broadside shot to a deer would be a 10mm. At least you are getting .41 caliber ballistics, especially if it is loaded properly.

But, there is no way I would consider taking my G17 out and popping rounds at deer.

I am actually hoping to try my hand at my scoped .454 casull this year.
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:00   #64
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Neither.
Personally I wouldn't consider anything less than a 357 mag or a 10mm for deer.

44 mag would be my handgun caliber of choice for close range work.
They hit something like a 30 30 carbine close up.
A 9mm loaded to full potential isn't too far behind a .357 Mag out of weapons with similar barrel lengths. Underwood is hitting 1300 fps from a G19 with 124 gold dots. Not too far from .357 mag velocity from a 4 inch gun.
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:12   #65
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IME the .41 mag gets the job done well when loaded down a bit with a 210-220 Gn KSWC. I go for 1,200 fps and it is good to as far as any hangun in my hands, which puts a t a 10mm in the ballpark, with a 200 gn so for me they are a wash. Ironically I have to handload the .41 down and the 10 up from common factory loads.
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:18   #66
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A 9mm loaded to full potential isn't too far behind a .357 Mag out of weapons with similar barrel lengths. Underwood is hitting 1300 fps from a G19 with 124 gold dots. Not too far from .357 mag velocity from a 4 inch gun.
I've shot hot 9mm. I own a Smith 686 .357 magnum. The two aren't even comparible.
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:31   #67
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I've shot hot 9mm. I own a Smith 686 .357 magnum. The two aren't even comparible.
Have you put them over a chronograph? What's the barrel length of your 686?
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:49   #68
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Have you put them over a chronograph? What's the barrel length of your 686?
4" barrel. It kicks plenty with a full house load. You know you shot something. Again, nothing like a hot 9mm.

A .22lr and a .223 travel at pretty fast FPS, but I wouldn't take them grizzly bear hunting either.
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Old 10-09-2012, 00:18   #69
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4" barrel. It kicks plenty with a full house load. You know you shot something. Again, nothing like a hot 9mm.

A .22lr and a .223 travel at pretty fast FPS, but I wouldn't take them grizzly bear hunting either.
Obviously not. The bullet construction is all wrong.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:57   #70
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Obviously not. The bullet construction is all wrong.
Exactly. That is why hunting a deer with a 9mm is absurd.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:25   #71
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Exactly. That is why hunting a deer with a 9mm is absurd.
Have you seen what modern pistol bullets will withstand? XTP bullets are tough. The modern bonded bullets hold together well too. Deer are thin skinned game. I think it's Winchester that is making .223 ammo for deer now. A 9mm pistol bullet is plenty tough enough to penetrate to vital organs in the accepted performance window of the cartridge.

If a 9mm can punch through a windshield or car door and still make 12 inches in gel, I think it'll work on a deer with no armor.

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Old 10-09-2012, 07:47   #72
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Have you seen what modern pistol bullets will withstand? XTP bullets are tough. The modern bonded bullets hold together well too. Deer are thin skinned game. I think it's Winchester that is making .223 ammo for deer now. A 9mm pistol bullet is plenty tough enough to penetrate to vital organs in the accepted performance window of the cartridge.

If a 9mm can punch through a windshield or car door and still make 12 inches in gel, I think it'll work on a deer with no armor.
So true. I use my G17 for quieter finishing shots
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:56   #73
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Carrying a G17 would be a PITA. Too big so it will just get in the way. You really want to lug a full size Glock 17, with your bow and gear, while dragging a dead deer out of the woods?

.40S&W is a better caliber for woods walking and hunting. Personally I have a G27 and a Walther PPS in .40 that I use when out in the woods. The G23 should do you just fine.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:13   #74
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Carrying a G17 would be a PITA. Too big so it will just get in the way. You really want to lug a full size Glock 17, with your bow and gear, while dragging a dead deer out of the woods?

.40S&W is a better caliber for woods walking and hunting. Personally I have a G27 and a Walther PPS in .40 that I use when out in the woods. The G23 should do you just fine.
A 32-ounce handgun wouldn't be too much of a burden.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:43   #75
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A 32-ounce handgun wouldn't be too much of a burden.
The loaded weight between the G17 and G23 is not much. The G23 is only an ounce lighter.

The PITA is the size. A full size service pistol needs to be carried on the hip, and it will just get in the way when your gutting and hauling. Compacts and subcompacts are just more comfortable to carry.

G17 Length 8.03" , height 5.43"

G23 Length 7.3", Height 5.00"

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