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Old 10-06-2012, 18:26   #41
Kingarthurhk
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Why on earth would you consider taking a 9mm to a deer? One, I am not even sure its legal, so the game warden may get with you if you try. Two, it is not humane, and would require multiple hits. Three, you might end up tracking it for a long time and never finding it it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:52   #42
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Both are legal. Either will work in the right situation with the proper application.
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Old 10-07-2012, 16:45   #43
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What you should be looking at is a G20SF for the intended use. I've taken a doe with mine at 50 yards in an extended LWD 6.02" barrel and handloaded 180XTP @ 1300fps. The doe dropped on the spot, and the bullet completely penetrated.

If you want a double duty SD woods gun the G22/G23 would be the way to go for finishing shots, but I wouldn't try using it as a primary. .
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Old 10-07-2012, 19:56   #44
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Unless perhaps you're packing a big revolver (.44 Mag, heavy .45 Colt and up), most handguns will not be your primary hunting tool, 10mm included and the OP stated that the pistol would accompany his rifle. Deer aren't exactly hard to kill, and service calibers will get the job done up close, which is more an issue of shot placement and not power. We all know a .22 will kill deer, so it's obvious a 9mm or anything bigger will too, heck there's a video of a girl killing a 900+lb hog with a .40.
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Old 10-07-2012, 20:26   #45
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Unless perhaps you're packing a big revolver (.44 Mag, heavy .45 Colt and up), most handguns will not be your primary hunting tool, 10mm included and the OP stated that the pistol would accompany his rifle. Deer aren't exactly hard to kill, and service calibers will get the job done up close, which is more an issue of shot placement and not power. We all know a .22 will kill deer, so it's obvious a 9mm or anything bigger will too, heck there's a video of a girl killing a 900+lb hog with a .40.
I've seen the video of the girl killing the hog. The results in that video are the exact reason a 40S&W should not be used. She had to use the entire magazine. Pumping round after round into a game animal is unethical. Also there is a significant difference between a 40S&W in a compact, and a warm handloaded 10mm in an extended 6" barrel IMO. In this format the 10mm beats out the 357Mag. and is moving into lower end 41 Mag territory.
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Old 10-07-2012, 21:39   #46
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I've seen the video of the girl killing the hog. The results in that video are the exact reason a 40S&W should not be used. She had to use the entire magazine. Pumping round after round into a game animal is unethical. Also there is a significant difference between a 40S&W in a compact, and a warm handloaded 10mm in an extended 6" barrel IMO. In this format the 10mm beats out the 357Mag. and is moving into lower end 41 Mag territory.
At the ranges you used the pistol, sure, you're correct. I don't plan on using it for anything longer than 20-25 yards. Anything longer and I'll just use my rifle. I just don't see the point in blasting a deer with an '06 at 10 yards when a well placed 40 will do the trick. Also, using a scope, even at 3x at close ranges is difficult. I used to live in a shotgun only state. We had thick woods and normally ranges were short, maybe 75 yards at the most. A lot of guys would carry a revolver for short range work instead of slamming a 1oz slug into them.

I don't own a revolver. If I did, I'd probably bring that along. But I do own a .30-06 and a Glock 23.
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Old 10-07-2012, 22:03   #47
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I'm considering taking my 21SF this year as my Bowhunting side arm, ( I do have a 23 & 27) but we have had frequent bear visit's..not to hijack the thread...but what would you take considering a potential run in with a black bear?
The 23 does not have night sight's but does have a TLR1.
The 27 has night sigh'ts but is a Gen 1... I can also take the TLR1 off and put it on the 21SF.
We had one of the guy's have a run in with a bear, and no matter how much racket he made, that bear would not leave the base of his tree. After that bear milled around at his leisure...he finally waddled off...and our buddy made it back to camp a bit rattled. He only had a 1/2 mile walk...more like sprint. I don't want to be toting a 12G. TIA for any suggestions...and I apologize to the OP...even though it's somewhat still on track. Large game, handgun options...specific to what is owned.
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Old 10-07-2012, 22:15   #48
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I'm considering taking my 21SF this year as my Bowhunting side arm, ( I do have a 23 & 27) but we have had frequent bear visit's..not to hijack the thread...but what would you take considering a potential run in with a black bear?
The 23 does not have night sight's but does have a TLR1.
The 27 has night sigh'ts but is a Gen 1... I can also take the TLR1 off and put it on the 21SF.
We had one of the guy's have a run in with a bear, and no matter how much racket he made, that bear would not leave the base of his tree. After that bear milled around at his leisure...he finally waddled off...and our buddy made it back to camp a bit rattled. He only had a 1/2 mile walk...more like sprint. I don't want to be toting a 12G. TIA for any suggestions...and I apologize to the OP...even though it's somewhat still on track. Large game, handgun options...specific to what is owned.
To be honest, I'm not sure the ACP will pack enough penetration. Perhaps a 230+P XTP/FMJ/FMJ-FP would do the trick. If it were me, I might pack the 23 with some 180gr FMJ rounds. Sure, the FMJ isn't legal to hunt with, but you aren't "hunting" with the pistol. I doubt if you shot an aggressive bear with an FMJ that anyone would give you a hard time, as long as you were justified.

Check out some of the underwood or buffalo bore stuff. People seem to really like their products.
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Old 10-07-2012, 22:30   #49
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To be honest, I'm not sure the ACP will pack enough penetration. Perhaps a 230+P XTP/FMJ/FMJ-FP would do the trick. If it were me, I might pack the 23 with some 180gr FMJ rounds. Sure, the FMJ isn't legal to hunt with, but you aren't "hunting" with the pistol. I doubt if you shot an aggressive bear with an FMJ that anyone would give you a hard time, as long as you were justified.

Check out some of the underwood or buffalo bore stuff. People seem to really like their products.
Thanks...I have two boxes of BB +P for the 40 and the 45. Were on 9000 acres of private property, so I doubt there would be a problem. I often thought of getting a Bear permit, but my stand isn't really where they hang out and it's an extra $350. Were bowhunting deer...and coyote are a bigger problem to be honest with ya...I do like my 23...mightl bring them both.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:10   #50
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Thanks...I have two boxes of BB +P for the 40 and the 45. Were on 9000 acres of private property, so I doubt there would be a problem. I often thought of getting a Bear permit, but my stand isn't really where they hang out and it's an extra $350. Were bowhunting deer...and coyote are a bigger problem to be honest with ya...I do like my 23...mightl bring them both.
9000 acres? Sign me up!!! If I were you I'd bring the 23. Smaller, easier to pack, pretty much does the same thing as the 21SF. The chances of needing it for a bear are probably small.

I find that I like my 23 more than most any other pistol. I just wish shooing it wasn't like putting gas in my car!

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Old 10-08-2012, 09:06   #51
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I've seen the video of the girl killing the hog. The results in that video are the exact reason a 40S&W should not be used. She had to use the entire magazine. Pumping round after round into a game animal is unethical. Also there is a significant difference between a 40S&W in a compact, and a warm handloaded 10mm in an extended 6" barrel IMO. In this format the 10mm beats out the 357Mag. and is moving into lower end 41 Mag territory.
Yes she wasn't what I would call the best shot in the world either, it was her accuracy that called for the extra shots. I wouldn't have used the .40 in that situation myself, but I sure wouldn't have chose the 10mm either. Sure there is a difference between the .40 and 10mm but not like most make it out to be. It's understandable if one is shooting a small .40 throwing a 180gr @ 950 fps vs a hot 10mm in a 6" bbl @ 1300+ fps.

My G35 (5.3" bbl) easily throws a 180gr bullet @ 1200 fps using the right powder. When I drop in the 6" KKM G24 bbl I'm knocking on 1300 fps as well. I could claim that my .40 is in lower end .41 Mag territory too, but it's not a .41 Mag, just like the 10mm isn't...and both at their best would be a very lightly loaded .41 Mag. 10mm wins out on capacity verses the .357 (and all revolvers) but they're more or less about identical in the power dept. I've chronographed 180gr .357 Mag (6" bbl) at over 1300 fps w/H110, which is about the same as warm 10mm but with much higher sectional density.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:12   #52
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Originally Posted by NBT View Post
I'm considering taking my 21SF this year as my Bowhunting side arm, ( I do have a 23 & 27) but we have had frequent bear visit's..not to hijack the thread...but what would you take considering a potential run in with a black bear?
The 23 does not have night sight's but does have a TLR1.
The 27 has night sigh'ts but is a Gen 1... I can also take the TLR1 off and put it on the 21SF.
We had one of the guy's have a run in with a bear, and no matter how much racket he made, that bear would not leave the base of his tree. After that bear milled around at his leisure...he finally waddled off...and our buddy made it back to camp a bit rattled. He only had a 1/2 mile walk...more like sprint. I don't want to be toting a 12G. TIA for any suggestions...and I apologize to the OP...even though it's somewhat still on track. Large game, handgun options...specific to what is owned.
Your Buffalo Bore ammo should serve you very well. I would also add, in the G23, I would load up with either the 180gr Hornady XTP or get some 180gr Gold Dot from Underwoods, might be your best shot if you don't handload. http://www.underwoodammo.com/40sandw...ntboxof50.aspx

For the .45, probably 230gr +P Hornady XTP or the Underwoods 230gr +P Gold Dot http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp2...ntboxof50.aspx

If you have an aftermarket barrel, buy some .45 Super from Underwoods, that would be your best bet.

XTP's don't expand the largest, but they are very consistent and penetrate deeply as well.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:32   #53
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Both are legal. Either will work in the right situation with the proper application.
I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:28   #54
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I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
There are a lot of people who kill whitetail deer with the puny 9mm. Check out hipowers and handguns. That guy has shot quite a bit of deer using a 9mm hi power.

A lot of people list thr .357 as the baseline for deer. A 125 grain .357 magnum from a 4 inch barrel has a claimed muzzle velocity around 1450fps. Everyone know that is from a pressure barrel so you're talking 1350ish from a revolver. Add 2 inches and you make the claimed 1450ish with a big, heavy, gun.

9mm ammunition can easily be loaded to 1300-1350 fps. Watch tnoutdoors9 video of the 124 +p+ gold dot. That made 1300 fps. Out of a 17 that same load will be in the 1325-1350 ball park. Use an XTP and I think it'll work just fine at close range.
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Old 10-08-2012, 13:20   #55
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I can see no reasonable justification of shooting a large game animal, such as a deer with a 9mm bullet. It just won't do the job, and you will end up with a wounded suffering animal that you may or may not be able to track. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
Somehow people trust the 9mm with their lives, depending on it to stop violent assailants but it can't kill a deer? The 9mm is more than fine for a deer. A deep penetrating round properly placed will have no trouble taking a deer humanely, especially within 20yds as Yankee has said.

If one doesn't have the ability to take a deer with a 9mm they shouldn't bother hunting at all.
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Old 10-08-2012, 14:01   #56
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There are a lot of people who kill whitetail deer with the puny 9mm. Check out hipowers and handguns. That guy has shot quite a bit of deer using a 9mm hi power.

A lot of people list thr .357 as the baseline for deer. A 125 grain .357 magnum from a 4 inch barrel has a claimed muzzle velocity around 1450fps. Everyone know that is from a pressure barrel so you're talking 1350ish from a revolver. Add 2 inches and you make the claimed 1450ish with a big, heavy, gun.

9mm ammunition can easily be loaded to 1300-1350 fps. Watch tnoutdoors9 video of the 124 +p+ gold dot. That made 1300 fps. Out of a 17 that same load will be in the 1325-1350 ball park. Use an XTP and I think it'll work just fine at close range.
I have seen the end result of someone doing that. It was in the XD forums. A guy was proud of himself that he killed at fawn with his XD 9mm. It only took him half a dozen shots to do it. Why on earth would you do that to an animal on purpose?

I once was forced to kill a medium sized dog with a 9mm. It screamed and yelped before it died, and it took several hits to do it. It did not die well. These were solid heart long shots at nearly point blank range as it had me cornered. However, it was the only round I had at that moment. I know people think the 9mm is the be all and end all of rounds. It isn't.
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Old 10-08-2012, 14:09   #57
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My G20 (2nd gen) is my woods carry and has taken 2 whitetails. I would for sure take my 40 over my 9 if those were my choices.
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:17   #58
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I have seen the end result of someone doing that. It was in the XD forums. A guy was proud of himself that he killed at fawn with his XD 9mm. It only took him half a dozen shots to do it. Why on earth would you do that to an animal on purpose?

I once was forced to kill a medium sized dog with a 9mm. It screamed and yelped before it died, and it took several hits to do it. It did not die well. These were solid heart long shots at nearly point blank range as it had me cornered. However, it was the only round I had at that moment. I know people think the 9mm is the be all and end all of rounds. It isn't.
Everything kicks, screams, and yelps when it is dying. Even game animals shot with high power rifles. Killing is killing. This humane kill bull **** is just something people started spewing when PETA showed up. There is nothing noble or humane about killing something. People will ***** whine and complain about someone handgun hunting with a 9/40, but have no qualms about shooting an animal with an arrow.

If you ask me, while we're talking about the humanity of a kill, bow hunting is just plain stupid then. That's the most inhumane way to kill an animal. The mechanism for death is hemmorhage. An animal will be kicking and screaming for sometimes minutes after a bow shot, yet there is nothing wrong with that. How about all the bow hunters that wound animals and never find them. Ever seen a deer running around with a broken shaft in its thigh? I have. People even hunt elk and bear with bows. But that somehow is more humane than using a .40 handgun that produces both more penetration and foot pounds of energy with the proper bullet selection.
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:36   #59
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Everything kicks, screams, and yelps when it is dying. Even game animals shot with high power rifles. Killing is killing. This humane kill bull **** is just something people started spewing when PETA showed up. There is nothing noble or humane about killing something. People will ***** whine and complain about someone handgun hunting with a 9/40, but have no qualms about shooting an animal with an arrow.

If you ask me, while we're talking about the humanity of a kill, bow hunting is just plain stupid then. That's the most inhumane way to kill an animal. The mechanism for death is hemmorhage. An animal will be kicking and screaming for sometimes minutes after a bow shot, yet there is nothing wrong with that. How about all the bow hunters that wound animals and never find them. Ever seen a deer running around with a broken shaft in its thigh? I have. People even hunt elk and bear with bows. But that somehow is more humane than using a .40 handgun that produces both more penetration and foot pounds of energy with the proper bullet selection.
The argument about taking large game with a 9mm makes about as much sense as hunting one with a Jennings .25 I suppose it holds still enough, that round can probably kill most things, right?

The point, is whenever possible to make a clean kill. Causing needless suffering is not about sportsmanship, or the sign of a good hunter.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:07   #60
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The argument about taking large game with a 9mm makes about as much sense as hunting one with a Jennings .25 I suppose it holds still enough, that round can probably kill most things, right?

The point, is whenever possible to make a clean kill. Causing needless suffering is not about sportsmanship, or the sign of a good hunter.
Yea, no it doesn't make the same amount of sense as shooting the animal with a .25. The .25 lacks the penetration ability and has a smaller crush volume. A double lung shot with a 9mm or .40 is as clean of a kill as any. If hunting was about the most humane method available only head shots would be taken. As was said, if the animal can be taken with a bow it can be taken with the 9mm or .40 just the same. People take hogs with dogs and a knife, guessing that a good shot with a 9mm or .40 is a bit less stressful for the animal than a couple of bay dogs circling while catch dogs jump on only to wait for the hunter to arrive and slice your throat. Or maybe trapping is humane...

Point is, the deer can be taken responsibly with a 9mm or .40 if the hunter refuses to take a shot that is above his/her capability or the cartidges.
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