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Old 10-08-2012, 19:55   #26
ADK_40GLKr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Ok, so how do you know it's 0.1cc?
THAT I dipped 5 times to fill the .5 cc dipper, as I was grinding it down. Repeated the process several times until I was convinced it was 1/5 the volume of the .5cc plastic one that came with my dies.

My bad, I thought you were talking about measuring out 5 dips to load a case.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:28   #27
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
No it does NOT. No scale under several $500 measures 0.02gr, I am sure you meant 0.2gr, big, big diff. A scale that measure 0.2gr is NOT accurate enough for serious reloading. It's about as useful as dippers. Again, until someone shows me a scale that reapeatedly measures accurate 1/10gr charges w/o shifting zero over months of reloading, for under $100 retail, I am sticking to my original statemtent. You are going to have to spend $100 retail or more for a quality, repeatable dig scale.
No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:35   #28
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Originally Posted by unclebob View Post
Like what Fred has said many of times there is no digital scale that is any good under $100.00. That scale and many other scales come with calibration weights. Not check weights. Of all the reloading equipment you buy. The reloading scale is not a product that you skimp on.
Luckily my targets dont read this forum. Many a ragged hole will attest to the fact that a Gemini 20 measures to 0.02 grains (thats Zero Point Zero Two Grains) day in and day out. Spend your money any way you like, but if the goal is to measure charges accurately and consistently, spend $22 on a Gemini 20 and compare it to whatever you own before you cast judgment. The site has a 30 day return policy so you have nothing to lose other than preconceptions.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:39   #29
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Originally Posted by tkglazie View Post
No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.
Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/man...-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:45   #30
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Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
ADK_ This is a perfect example of choosing wisely who you take advise from on this forum. I know the wise posters, but won't name them for fear of insulting others. Even those wise folks can be guilty of occasional typos however.

Couple the poor advise of using a $22 digital scale AND a typo (or simply a misunderstanding of one's own gear), and you can see where you can simply waste a lot of monies OR have a catastrophic error, depending on how the typo/error/gear misunderstanding works out for you.

The same goes for Internet reload recipes. When you find them, make informed decisions based on cross-checking with published data.
Perhaps you should spend a few minutes doing your own research before you make such statements. Fair enough? Not to mention, a Lee Safety Scale is readily available for $22 and is as accurate as any scale on the market.

An apology would be in order, actually, dont you think?

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/man...-20_manual.pdf

page 5

Last edited by tkglazie; 10-08-2012 at 21:04..
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:54   #31
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/man...-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard
Use what you like, but if the goal is to put an accurate charge into a case, this scale does it and has for me for almost a year now with one battery change. I compare it regularly to my beam scale and it never disappoints.

I do understand that this is difficult to believe but the results dont lie. For $22, refundable, it would be really easy for anyone to see for themselves.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:07   #32
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Originally Posted by tkglazie View Post
No, it DOES. Buy one and get back to me.
SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain? Maybe someday someone will make a reliable cheap dig scale, not today though. BTW, what are you using to verify said wonder scale??? I am not buying the advert or you response, no disrespect, but until you have had that little gem on & off 100s of times & verified it against cert check wts, you have no idea.
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Last edited by fredj338; 10-08-2012 at 21:13..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:11   #33
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That's the biggest problem we have in measuring our powder. We relate VOLUME to WEIGHT. If you bump around on the bench, the powder packs down so it is more dense. Then the volume is heavier.

I started out using dippers in the 1960's when an Ohaus 5-10 or 10-10 was beyond my dreams cost wise. I got pretty consistent with dippers but I had no other choice. I had a small quantity of powder, ran the dipper through it then swept off the top with a piece of cardboard. That gave the charge no bumping or packing down.

Now, there are so many options available for digital scales, it's no longer optional to use one. If you like the dippers, heck, keep using them. Just verify your charge weight.

I personally recommend the Lyman 55 powder measure. It has three separate volume chambers so adjustment is very precise. It even has a little hammer installed in the front of the housing to tap a consistent amount for every charge. I have 9 powder measures and the Lyman 55 is the best of all of them.

With pistol powders, the burn rate is so fast that it's easy to get into KB territory. Yes......you must have a scale. Please....

Flash
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:15   #34
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Originally Posted by tkglazie View Post
Luckily my targets dont read this forum. Many a ragged hole will attest to the fact that a Gemini 20 measures to 0.02 grains (thats Zero Point Zero Two Grains) day in and day out. Spend your money any way you like, but if the goal is to measure charges accurately and consistently, spend $22 on a Gemini 20 and compare it to whatever you own before you cast judgment. The site has a 30 day return policy so you have nothing to lose other than preconceptions.
A ragged hole proves nothing of the level of precision that you claim that this scale is capable of. Some powders will do the ragged hole thing with +/- 2 tenths of grains as dispensed through a powder throw.

I would believe that it gives weight readouts in 2/100 grain increments, but I seriously doubt that it is repeatably accurate to that level of precision. Have you ever tested the scale with check weights? I am not talking about calibration weights.

The only way to know is to verify the readings with check weights across a variety of weight ranges. Do you have check weights in hundredths of grain increments? Perhaps some photos with said check weights to prove your point?
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:15   #35
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain? BS. If it says that, it's BS. If you believe that, maybe consider something other than reloading.
Wow. No, it really isnt BS. I sent you the documentation and have described first-hand real world experiences, yet I am the one who needs to reconsider reloading?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are actually some things in this world that are true even if you dont believe them.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:18   #36
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Yes, the scale reads to 0.02 GRAINS. It also reads to 0.001 grams which is 0.015... gr.

http://www.americanweigh.com/pdf/man...-20_manual.pdf

Nevertheless, I wouldn't use it to measure charges.

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_9gor0gy71s_e

I want something with a track record in reloading.

Richard
So it will display grains along with grams?

Last edited by dkf; 10-08-2012 at 21:20..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:21   #37
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
A ragged hole proves nothing of the level of precision that you claim that this scale is capable of. Some powders will do the ragged hole thing with +/- 2 tenths of grains as dispensed through a powder throw.

I would believe that it gives weight readouts in 2/100 grain increments, but I seriously doubt that it is repeatably accurate to that level of precision. Have you ever tested the scale with check weights? I am not talking about calibration weights.

The only way to know is to verify the readings with check weights across a variety of weight ranges. Do you have check weights in hundredths of grain increments? Perhaps some photos with said check weights to prove your point?
Lets back up here. A few posts ago I was being questioned (and still have not seen a retraction) about the fact that this scale even MEASURES what I said it measures, and now I am the one who needs to produce photo proof what is already been documented? Even if the scale does close to what it claims it is better than most of the "name brand" scales that start at .1 grain accuracy.

I have yet to weigh a charge or weight on this scale and have it disagree with my Lee Safety Scale (which is good for 1/20th grain, does anyone care to dispute that?)

When I load for my .32 Special (only 20 at a time), I use a dipper to get near 34 grains of H4895 and then use tweezers to drop individual grains until I get to 34.02 (for no other reason than thats the charge I used for the best group with that gun and its as easy to hit one number as another). The scale registers each grain or two as it is dropped.

Jeez, the thing costs just over $20. We all spend more than that on components in a week. Try it out, send it back if you dont like it. But until someone comes to ME with proof that this thing DOESNT do what it says, I would appreciate the benefit of the doubt. What kind of forum do we have here anyway? Check my history, have I NOT been a positive, supportive member here?

Last edited by tkglazie; 10-08-2012 at 21:28..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:22   #38
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So it will display grains along with grams?
yes, it has a mode button and toggles between several measurements.

for calibration, it uses the 2-weight method using the 2 provided 10gram weights.

Last edited by tkglazie; 10-08-2012 at 21:23..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:26   #39
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I went through the docs on the Gemini scale. Excellent scales read to +- .1 grain. Not so hot scales read to +- .2 grain. I strongly suspect a typo error in the specs.

I have a set of check weight standards and I'd sure verify that before I accepted the data in those docs.

Flash
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:29   #40
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Originally Posted by ROGER4314 View Post
I went through the docs on the Gemini scale. Excellent scales read to +- .1 grain. Not so hot scales read to +- .2 grain. I strongly suspect a typo error in the specs.

I have a set of check weight standards and I'd sure verify that before I accepted the data in those docs.

Flash
A typo error in the specs, AND on the unit?

remember- there ARE some concessions when using this unit- primarily its tiny size, the fact that it is battery powered and its very small pan. You will want to use a larger pan on top of the existing one as I mentioned. If you weigh each charge and load a lot, this isnt the scale for you. But for low volume use, or for spot checking volume charges I cant imagine a better value.

Last edited by tkglazie; 10-08-2012 at 21:33..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:31   #41
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Originally Posted by tkglazie View Post
yes, it has a mode button and toggles between several measurements.

for calibration, it uses the 2-weight method using the 2 provided 10gram weights.
I may try one to try since they are inexpensive. I already have a good Dillon Eliminator to test it against.

I do understand what some are saying. Just because the display reads down to .02 grain does not mean it is accurate to .02 grain. Kind of like an electronic caliper that displays down to .0005". It may have .0005" increments but nobody but a fool will depend on it below +-.002".

Last edited by dkf; 10-08-2012 at 21:34..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:35   #42
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Why do you get so wound up about it? You reported about what the docs say exactly right. No one is doubting you. I've been using analog and digital scales for a long time and I simply don't buy their printed information as correct.

Flash
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:36   #43
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I may try one to try since they are inexpensive. I already have a good Dillon Eliminator so I have a very good scale already to test it with.
if nothing else its a handy backup or double/trlple check scale to have on hand. if you have any problems with yours please do share, I would be as interested as anyone since I do use mine quite regularly.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:40   #44
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Why do you get so wound up about it? You reported about what the docs say exactly right. No one is doubting you. I've been using analog and digital scales for a long time and I simply don't buy their printed information as correct.

Flash
Sorry, I am just pretty offended by SARDG's post and the way some have just assumed I have no idea what I am talking about. I try hard to be a positive, helpful presence on these boards. Reloading forums got me off to a good start in my reloading life and I am grateful for that and would like to return the favor.

For the record, I have a BS in Mech Engineering and worked on some of the cooler toys in our national arsenal for one of the big defense contractors back in the day, I think I can run a little old scale
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:56   #45
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SO you are trying to tell me it measures 2/100 of a grain?
From the manual, yes it does. Since it reads to 0.001 GRAM, reading to 0.02 GRAINS is not a problem. These are not typos, the numbers are straight out of the user manual.

It would be interesting to see how it works against check weights.

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Old 10-08-2012, 22:00   #46
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They claim +- .02 grain accuracy and the norm is +- .1 grain (good) or +- .2 (fair). It could be a coincidence but it seems likely that there was an error.

If I get a chance, I'll order the Gemini and try it. For the tiny cost, it would be worth buying if it's a reliable unit. I have several digital scales that didn't work well for powder charges but they still work great for weighing bullets or other components.

For the record, I have a Masters in technology but once you get old and retire, folks think a lifetime of training and experience simply evaporates. I don't care if folks believe me or not.

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Old 10-08-2012, 23:15   #47
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Wow, I went away for a couple of hours and 25+ posts showed up before me.

I am generally a fact-checker from way back, but it is so grossly uncommon for anything costing $22 to have an actual accuracy of .02gr that no checking was deemed necessary.

However, the specs don't claim an accuracy of .02gr, they claim a resolution of .02gr. tkglazie, your original post claimed that the scale "measures to .02grains". Measures to (?), accuracy, resolution, and precision are all different animals. Take a look at this article, especially the Real-world Example at the bottom of the page that cuts to the chase:
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure/precision.php

The other parts of this page demonstrate how manufacturers hedge on precision and accuracy, by claiming good scores for resolution. Built in weighing algorithms may help perpetuate the illusion to the scale's end user. Repeatability and reliability are also mentioned regarding actual precision.

I too would like to prove-up actual accuracy and real precision, and therefore repeatability and reliability in such an economical package - but fear it won't measure up (no actual pun intended).

Of course, normal reloader's check-weights don't go down to .02gr, mine starting at .5gr.; so how we check the Gemini is unknown. There is another related page "Testing a Digital Scale" which seems to give correct procedures for accurate testing if you have the time and patience:
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/measure...lScaleTest.php

If I am found to be wrong, I most definitely would owe you an apology, but I am not yet convinced. My statement was actually made to convince ADK to choose wisely regarding which random posters to believe and I fear I was somewhat insensitive in the way I did that and apologize now for the insensitivity of my 'sell'.

Kitty N.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:44   #48
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Well, for $25, I'll buy one & use it in my reloading class, the ammo is never shot, so I won't care. It certainly can't be worse than the $25 Hornady that never stays zeroed. I would expect a guy w/ a BS in engineering would know better. but hey, college isn't what it used to be. Check wts BTW, start @ 10grain & go down, not up. Check w/ certified check wts & get back to me. Weigh the same 10gr wt 10 x, it should never vary.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:21   #49
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
...Check w/ certified check wts & get back to me. Weigh the same 10gr wt 10 x, it should never vary.
It may NOT vary during that test. The website article I referenced above claims that circuits built into cheaper scales can mask inconsistent measurements. If a 10gr weight is placed on the scale and actually measures 10gr, the circuits will take subsequent readings within a 'range' (as an example, 9.8-10.2gr) and display them as 10gr. The author suggests "cleansing the palette" of the scale between test weights by weighing a much heavier or lighter weight in between test weights.

These algorithms are allegedly how low-cost scales can use resolution to mask inaccuracy and imprecision.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:14   #50
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Gemini 20.

I copied this from a conversion site:
0.001g = 0.0154323580gr

I copied this description of the Gemini 20 from an on line store:

"Get quality and accuracy with the Gemini-20 digital gram scale. The Gemini-20 is accurate to 0.001 grams.

So the scale is accurate to (rounding off) 0.02 grains
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