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Old 10-05-2012, 17:41   #51
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Absolutely. I need to get some Low Recoil.
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Old 10-05-2012, 18:10   #52
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I use the 12ga slug and OO buckshot combo. I like the idea of a slug accompanied by three OO pellets.
The Winchester version prints nicely and reliably from the Mossberg.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:36   #53
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Being from Arkansas I've killed several whitetail deer with squirrel shot when I was a kid.

Why does the above not surprise me & somebody from Arkansas

No do not try to shoot a deer with squirrel shot ( I guess he really meant birdshot, since their's no such load that I'm aware of that called squirrel shot, their's smallgame loads , duck, turkey, & buckshot )

The only why I see killing a mature deer with birdshot would be if it was the TEOTWAWKI and I was down to only a birdshot load as my only choice.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:55   #54
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I can't help but think

that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading.
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Old 10-06-2012, 15:10   #55
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that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading.
You need adequate penetration for it to matter. Birdshot isn't likely to give you that.
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:33   #56
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I keep my SG loaded with low recoil buck. If I am faced with a situation where someone is in my house and I am in fear for my life or the lives of my family, I want to make sure I neutralize the threat. It's the age old "stopping power" argument.


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Old 10-06-2012, 21:55   #57
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that the tissue damage from the several hundred birdshot pellets would be massive. I may have to rethink my slug/buckshot Mossberg 500 loading.
Only if it's point-blank, and in the throat.
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:04   #58
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But does it work better than 0, 00, or #4 at close ranges?

I don't think that there is a whole lot of argument that these other loads work better than #7-1/2 or #8 under other conditions.

So bird shot may work well under certain conditions, but other loads work better under a wider variety of conditions.

Of course all bets are off for .410 birdshot in a handgun where there is wide dispersion, and little penetration, even at room distances.
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:24   #59
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
Death doesn't mean the round was properly effective, believe it or not.
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Old 10-07-2012, 15:40   #60
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Based on my (limited) personal experience I don't even consider birdshot an option for self defense.

Once when I was in college some friends and I were out hunting in the woods when one of my friends (who was not following the 4 rules of gun safety and who is kind of an idiot) accidentally shot one of my other friends with his shotgun, which was loaded with birdshot. My friend who was shot was about 40ft away and it was in late-fall so he was wearing a heavy coat and multiple layers of clothing. He said the birdshot hurt like a SOB and knocked the wind out of him, however, only about a dozen pellets broke the skin and none penetrated even remotely deep enough to be life threatening (he did have a massive bruise afterwards) and he made a full recovery in just a few weeks.

After seeing how little the birdshot effected my friend when he was shot (my friend was completely coherent and physically active afterwards), birdshot is about the last load I would want to use to try and stop a determined attacker who may be high on drugs and feel even less of an effect.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:56   #61
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
During college I worked at a doc's office (pulmonary). I did a chest x-ray of a fairly large guy (probably 6'-4"; 280#) who was getting a Tn-DVR exam (disability). I developed the CXR (back then we used tanks to develop the film), between developer and fixer, I'd usually make a quick check of the film with a darkroom light. I thought a film had been splattered with fixer. After fully processing the film, and looking at it on the light-box, it was apparent that he had been shot (twice) with birdshot - the lateral films showed that one set of shot was in the front and the other was in the back - both with little penetration.

I asked that pt about it - he said it was from a shotgun - from two separate incidents.

I asked why the ER didn't remove the shot, he said something to the effect of - he didn't go to the ER (either time) because it wasn't "in his best interest at the time".
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:31   #62
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Shotgun World has had extensive similar discussions.

For Jello lovers only.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

I'm sure that Mr Google will find many more like discussions with penetration numbers and more photos of jello, hog and beef flesh and bones, and maybe people.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:35   #63
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I use only 12 guage 00 buck, though I have some slugs as well, though that is going to have some penentration issues. My thought is if you can't hit with 00 buck there are some serious issues. Birdshot is for birds for a reason. You are more likely to make an agressive person even angrier with birdshot.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:51   #64
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With the military being very specific about what type of projectiles they use, I think their choice of buckshot speaks volumes about what is the best for defense.

With that said, the only shotgun I have is a NEF single shot 20 gauge with #3 buckshot. Energy wise its very similar to 12 guage 00 buckshot loads, but with more (smaller) pellets. I have a stock sleeve with 2 more of the same load, and 3 slugs.

The shotgun is not my primary defensive weapon though.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:16   #65
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Oh, heck with it. I'll stick to my 12ga Slug & 3 OO buckshot pellet loads.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:23   #66
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Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:34   #67
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Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL
The jury wouldn't view it to kindly.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:47   #68
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I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

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Old 10-09-2012, 10:21   #69
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I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

Flash
Same here, I use a combo load - slug and 3 OO buck pellets.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:06   #70
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I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
More than likely that was w/ some choke, it matters. Avg shot spread for riot chokes, 1"/yard or 6"-7" @ 20ft. Unless the shot is heavy & the hit on an unobsturcted area, like the throat/face, it's not likely to hit anything vital. A denim jacket would slow the shot enough, add a layer of muscle/fat, the BG is just gonna be pissed off. Geeze, I have had wet pheasent not drop from a solid hit w/ #6 @ 60ft from a mod choke. Doesn' give me confidence in birdhsot of any flavor for serious SD.
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Old 10-09-2012, 12:11   #71
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Are birds breaking into your house? DOC
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Old 10-09-2012, 18:12   #72
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Are birds breaking into your house? DOC
heh heh heh heh!
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:36   #73
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Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:24   #74
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Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:49   #75
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Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
You make very sounds points if your ER friend is telling the truth and I believe he is. That is why my first line of defense is a shotgun(18" pump). However if I have to defend myself with a handgun, do I use a .22 or a.40? The .40 of course, imho. Therefore , if I am going to "eliminate a threat", do I use large shot or small shot in a shotgun? Large shot, no question. Many out here may confuse what bird shot is. There is a "skeet" load(low powder), "game" load(medium powder), and what we use to call "high brass"( for duck and pheasant) or heavy powder. If you use bird shot, get the "high brass"(excuse my ancient terminology, I only reload pistol cartridges).My SD cartridges are factory high grain rds, I would not prefer to shoot my low grain reloads for "eliminating a threat". I keep my pistol as close as my pump in my bedroom.

Shotguns are more accurate for most people and studies I've read, say it is the best "one shot stop". I use 00 buck, if it will bring down a 160 lb deer, I trust it for my needs. I've never seen a seasoned deer hunter deliberately load with "bird shot" to kill a deer. Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?
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