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Old 10-08-2012, 22:21   #126
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Yes, vaccinations should not be mandatory because not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory should not be interfered with.
No, your statement is much larger than vaccinations.

Quote:
Unfortunately, not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest should not be interfered with.
Your position is not very well thought out.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:22   #127
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
How strongly do you believe in the theory of natural selection?
Very strongly, although I'm not the same advocate of eugenics that you seem to be.

As others have pointed out, our advances as a species include not only our ability to provide food and shelter from weather and predators, but all of our other advances that allow us to survive childhood and reproduce, and raise children that are able to reproduce.

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Old 10-08-2012, 22:23   #128
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
No, your statement is much larger than vaccinations.



Your position is not very well thought out.
OK, if you say so.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:29   #129
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
How strongly do you believe in the theory of natural selection?
Natural selection is a scientific theory that puts forth an explanation of the natural world. It is not a doctrine that it is to be "believed in". At least, not in the context you are suggesting. You can believe that it is either a valid theory or an invalid one, but that says nothing on it's moral implications.

And if you would interpet the theory correctly, then you would see that all it says is that if a specimen has a useful adaptation then it is more likely to successfully pass on its genes to the next generation. In our case, our big brains and problem solving abilities are our adaptation that give us an edge and make us more successful than other mammals. So, using complex medical technology that we invent (including vaccinations) is entirely consistent with the theory.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:33   #130
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I'm gonna adapt myself to a nice warm bed.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:41   #131
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Natural selection is a scientific theory that puts forth an explanation of the nastural world. It is not a doctrine that it is to be "believed in". At least, not in the context you are suggesting. You can believe that it is either a valid theory or an invalid one, but that says nothing on it's moral implications.

And if you would interpet the theory correctly, then you would see that all it says is that if a specimen has a useful adaptation then it is more likely to successfully pass on its genes to the next generation. In our case, our big brains and problem solving abilities are our adaptation that give us an edge and make us more successful than other mammals.
OK, maybe that's why I also support the re-introduction of wolves and bobcats back into the wildness.


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So, using complex medical technology that we invent (including vaccinations) is entirely consistent with the theory.
You're talking about natural selection of humans over other mammals. I'm talking about natural selection within the human population. This means assuming everyone has the same access to vaccinations, but some want the right to opt out of being forced to get it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:50   #132
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I'm talking about natural selection within the human population. This means assuming everyone has the same access to vaccinations, but some want the right to opt out of being forced to get it.
The stupid will have dead children. Great... HH
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:56   #133
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The stupid will have dead children. Great... HH
Not being vaccinated is only one of many ways children don't make it into adulthood. As you said, the stupid will have dead children, and death comes in many flavors.
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Old 10-08-2012, 23:08   #134
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Yes, vaccinations should not be mandatory because not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory should not be interfered with.

Does it sound cold and heartless? Yes. Do I believe it? Yes.
By this reasoning then organ transplants should not be allowed, diabetics no insulin supplements, hell the entire medical field should cease to exist. Really?
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:13   #135
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WHAT IS A VACCINATION? A vaccination is a way of preventing what would
otherwise be deadly and potentially incurable disease.

Before the polio vaccine, 13,000 to 20,000 people were paralyzed by polio, and about 1,000 people died from it each year in the United States. Polio is a virus transmitted through the stool, nasal mucus, or saliva. It is often transmitted through contaminated water or food. By vaccinating you can prevent people from getting and spreading it which leads to...The last cases of naturally occurring paralytic polio in the United States were in 1979, when an outbreak occurred among the Amish in several Midwestern states.

See there are people called parents...parents generally care about their kids enough that they don't want them to go through pain and suffering then be severely disabled for the rest of their life, or even die young. There is also another group called humanitarians...this group actually cares about other humans and their quality of life, not just themselves ...hard to believe I know, hope that helps you understand where they are coming from

Also, there was a study that linked vaccines to autism and it was found to be a blatant fraud. Over the following decade, epidemiological studies consistently found no evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism(http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452)

Too bad we can't vaccinate for the complete lack of research and critical thinking skills

Last edited by Kahala; 10-09-2012 at 03:23..
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:48   #136
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No one individual is indispensable to mankind. Certainly a handful of people have made great impacts on mankind's history, but who's to say that if they hadn't existed, the world would have stopped? Or that no one else after them would have picked up what they did.
Originally Posted by Patchman The Okie Corral
Yes, vaccinations should not be mandatory because not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory should not be interfered with.


So if your child contracted small pox or polio or some other life threatening disease (that you could have prevented) , you would feel fine that he or she suffered a crippling disorder or died just because you think Darwin was correct?
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:51   #137
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Originally Posted by m2hmghb View Post
Sorry but that does not look like a study, it looks more like a survey. To quote "The information is from an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and from a German classical homeopathic practitioner". There is no peer review, there is no random sampling, there is nothing except a bunch of questions people answered on a website.
That's irrelevant. Call it a study and 90% of people will believe it without reading any further.


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Old 10-09-2012, 05:38   #138
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
That's irrelevant. Call it a study and 90% of people will believe it without reading any further.
Make up a statistic, and 84% of the population will accept it, no questions asked.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:42   #139
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Natural selection is a scientific theory that puts forth an explanation of the natural world. It is not a doctrine that it is to be "believed in". At least, not in the context you are suggesting.
Good point, and I should have made the same clarification. I no more hold a belief in evolution through natural selection than I hold a belief in gravity -- I recognize it to be true.

That said, I'll reiterate that intelligence is a survival adaptation. It should not be shunned.

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Old 10-09-2012, 05:50   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Natural selection is a scientific theory that puts forth an explanation of the natural world. It is not a doctrine that it is to be "believed in". At least, not in the context you are suggesting. You can believe that it is either a valid theory or an invalid one, but that says nothing on it's moral implications.

And if you would interpet the theory correctly, then you would see that all it says is that if a specimen has a useful adaptation then it is more likely to successfully pass on its genes to the next generation. In our case, our big brains and problem solving abilities are our adaptation that give us an edge and make us more successful than other mammals. So, using complex medical technology that we invent (including vaccinations) is entirely consistent with the theory.
Resistance to serious disease, especially childhood disease, is also a trait that affects natural selection, so Patchman does have a point that vaccination leads to a population that lacks natural/genetic resistance to disease (which is naturally achieved by those who don't have the resistance dying before they reproduce).

On the other hand "survival of the fittest" is never changed - but by changing the environment, as with medical care, welfare, protection from crime, or all sorts of modern things, we change the definition of who is "fittest." People assume "survival of the fittest" means people should continue to get stronger, faster and smarter, but that is not the case. It may very well be that the "civilized society" doesn't result in the strong/fast/smart reproducing more, but instead in the stupid and weak reproducing more. Certainly seems that way.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:53   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychman View Post
Originally Posted by Patchman The Okie Corral
Yes, vaccinations should not be mandatory because not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory should not be interfered with.


So if your child contracted small pox or polio or some other life threatening disease (that you could have prevented) , you would feel fine that he or she suffered a crippling disorder or died just because you think Darwin was correct?
That isn't at all what he said. Like the "should" part or not, he is clearly correct that artificial resistance to disease, through vaccination, leads to a population that lacks natural resistance.

I personally don't care, because I have no interest in the long term future of people, after I'm gone. So, I would vaccinate. But that doesn't make Patchman wrong about the consequences.

However, getting back to the original topic, I thought it was a much more interesting thing that somebody actually advocates basing your children's medical care on a survey by a homeopathic healer. Someone half a step below "faith healer" in the medical hierarchy. That wasn't interesting to anybody?
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:22   #142
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What blind stupidity.

Think about the world today without vaccines against:

Smallpox (really the argument ends right here)
Polio
Tetanus
Diphtheria
Pertussis
Etc.

Agreed. A bunch of conspiracy nuts love to fudge the numbers and say vaccines = instant death.

I believe the one who started this whole deal on vaccines is now being held with criminal charges due to such.... I could be wrong though.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:52   #143
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
"The US is the world leader in autism by a staggering large margin.

We are also the world leader in obesity.

Therefore, being fat causes autism."

You can replace "obesity" with a number of other terms: car ownership, income levels, number of Xboxes, whatever you want.

You know what all of those things have in common with vaccines? None of them have any statistical correlation with autism.
Vaccines in general being good or bad is up in the air, but the autism link is still being studied due to vaccines; namely, after the mercury was removed, the incidences of autism remain.

Here is only one link, but there is a wealth of info out there that's fair and analytical.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:06   #144
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namely, after the mercury was removed, the incidences of autism remain.
That's because a much more compelling argument for the apparent increase in autism is simple over-diagnosis. Thirty years ago, a child would not be diagnosed as autistic unless he was sitting in the corner rocking back and forth while being largely unresponsive to normal stimuli. Today, if little Timmy daydreams to much in class he gets diagnosed as mildly autistic (or ADHD) and handed a prescription.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:12   #145
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That's because a much more compelling argument for the apparent increase in autism is simple over-diagnosis. Thirty years ago, a child would not be diagnosed as autistic unless he was sitting in the corner rocking back and forth while being largle unresponsive to normal stimuli. Today, if little Timmy daydreams to much in class he gets diagnosed as mildly autistic (or ADHD) and handed a prescription.

Thanks Geko, exactly what I was about to post in response to PW.

SMASH gng ignorance!!!
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:17   #146
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Interesting thread.

In almost every other thread that touches on government intervention and "mandating" things, everyone here, including many in this thread rises up, thumps their chests, and shouts about tyranny and the gov't screwing up perfectly good programs, they should keep their nose out of the business of private citizens, etc. But when it comes to vaccines, suddenly it's a good thing.
This has always made me scratch my head. I thought most people who support guns had enough sense to question the government's "we know best for you" attitude.

Now can any of the vaccine supporters show me one study that proves that it was vaccines that slowed those diseases or better sanitary practices that slowed those diseases? (ETA: Remember, correlation does not necessarily equal causation.) If you research the efficacy of vaccines I have no problem with you giving them to your children. I would ask you to respect my decision not to vaccinate my children. You know, "agree to disagree".
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:49   #147
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Sorry but that does not look like a study, it looks more like a survey. To quote "The information is from an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and from a German classical homeopathic practitioner". There is no peer review, there is no random sampling, there is nothing except a bunch of questions people answered on a website.
Yeah, but the survey had ads for vaccines. So it's credible.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:27   #148
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
That's because a much more compelling argument for the apparent increase in autism is simple over-diagnosis. Thirty years ago, a child would not be diagnosed as autistic unless he was sitting in the corner rocking back and forth while being largely unresponsive to normal stimuli. Today, if little Timmy daydreams to much in class he gets diagnosed as mildly autistic (or ADHD) and handed a prescription.
And what proof do you have to assert the veracity of that statement? Show me a study that conclusively proves that over diagnosis is the sole cause for the increase in autism. I've looked, and I sure can't find one.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22425036

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19004564
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:32   #149
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I'm gonna adapt myself to a nice warm bed.
Sleep outside on the ground instead. Your children will be stronger for it!

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Old 10-09-2012, 15:35   #150
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Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
What blind stupidity.

Think about the world today without vaccines against:

Smallpox (really the argument ends right here)
Polio
Tetanus
Diphtheria
Pertussis
Etc.
Most likely be a lot less liberals running around screwing things up.
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