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Old 10-09-2012, 20:30   #41
Dragoon44
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But even in an advisory capacity, could not those LEA choose to follow his advisory...especially if they are somewhat anti-gun? It may not provide 100% cover, but through litigation, they could say they were following the advice of the AG; thus potentially releasing them from violating ones right?
Again the Fl AG's opinion carries NO legal weight. Every LE agency in Fl is aware of this. The only opinions they MIGHT listen to is those where the Ag has been asked for his legal opinion on some aspect of Fl law. That is not the case in this situation. This is not an opinion issued by the AG it is part of the Ag's argument in the brief filed with the court.

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IMHO, problem is, if the case is upheld, it creates bad case law. Hence, why the Florida Open Carry filed their brief.
The case has noting to do with open carry. the individual was not arrested for open carry. the defense is trying to claim that part of the handle of the firearm being visible equals open carry but it does not.

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It reminds me of the cliche': Guilty till proven innocent.
This mantra of the gun rights folks always amuses me. obviously if the police in their work operate don innocent until proven guilty they would never arrest anyone or charge them with anything.

"innocent until proven guilty" has it's place, but that place is the courtroom not the street.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:20   #42
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Originally Posted by RenegadeGlocker View Post
What case was that?
Florida v. J.L., 2000

There is currently a split between Florida's DCAs about whether the presence of a firearm, absent RAS of criminal activity (excepting the carrying of a firearm) is grounds for a Terry stop.

The split is the reason this case is now before the Florida Supreme Court.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:52   #43
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Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
Florida v. J.L., 2000

There is currently a split between Florida's DCAs about whether the presence of a firearm, absent RAS of criminal activity (excepting the carrying of a firearm) is grounds for a Terry stop.

The split is the reason this case is now before the Florida Supreme Court.
Thanks, but I was asking for the the SCOTUS case:

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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Disreguarding that the SCOTUS already said just because a person is carrying a firearm doesn't give them the right to stop/questioning by LEO's!
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:05   #44
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Out of curiosity was there an investigation? An inquest?
I can't vouch for the validity of the reported 'facts' as presented in the article.

http://www.firearmscoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=616:hoplophobia-kills&catid=19:the-knox-update&Itemid=144
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:09   #45
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
This mantra of the gun rights folks always amuses me. obviously if the police in their work operate don innocent until proven guilty they would never arrest anyone or charge them with anything.

"innocent until proven guilty" has it's place, but that place is the courtroom not the street.
Which is why we have constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. And why we must protect that right against those who would trash it in name of some manufactured notion of 'Greater Good.'
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:13   #46
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Originally Posted by RenegadeGlocker View Post
Thanks, but I was asking for the the SCOTUS case:
Florida v. J.L. IS the SCOTUS case (529 U.S. 266).
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:25   #47
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Originally Posted by rvrctyrngr View Post
Florida v. J.L. IS the SCOTUS case (529 U.S. 266).
Ok thanks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:07   #48
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This. Word for word. I have never understood the people that antagonize an officer during a stop. Being cooperative beats being an argumentative ass every time, even if the officer is not showing you the same courtesy. If you get an officer that is being a jerk, take it up with his superiors at a later time. The side of the road is NEVER the place to argue or be a Constitution Commando.

I have been asked by an officer to search my vehicle on one occasion. I did not ask why as it really didn't matter to me. I had nothing to hide, so I said absolutely. He asked me to exit the vehicle and retreived the german shepherd from his car. He opened all the doors and the trunk and allowed the dog to sniff around the inside of the car. It literally took about 2 minutes and that was the end of that. The officer thanked me for my cooperation and didn't even write me the speeding ticket I deserved. Had I been a jerk about it and blabbered about my constitutional rights, I am sure things would have gone south in a hurry. I don't get why some people don't understand that.
Yeah, if you just let them do whatever they want, your rights be damned, it'll all be over quick, right?!

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Old 10-10-2012, 07:16   #49
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Which is why we have constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. And why we must protect that right against those who would trash it in name of some manufactured notion of 'Greater Good.'
No argument there other than with the folks that want to either ignore the "unreasonable" part. Or claim that ANY search without a warrant is unreasonable.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:19   #50
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And... JMHO... what is wrong with simply telling the officer " I have a concealed handgun and a permit, and how do you wish me to procede?"... whether your state law requires it or not?
Because some Leo's OVERACT. IE FHP. You turn a 10 minute simple traffic stop into a 30 min ordeal, having your gun taking from you, finger F'ed, unloaded, given back to you in pieces, & then lectured on why you shouldn't have a gun.
Maybe you get a few nice ones, And then maybe not.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:57   #51
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Again the Fl AG's opinion carries NO legal weight. Every LE agency in Fl is aware of this. The only opinions they MIGHT listen to is those where the Ag has been asked for his legal opinion on some aspect of Fl law. That is not the case in this situation. This is not an opinion issued by the AG it is part of the Ag's argument in the brief filed with the court.



The case has noting to do with open carry. the individual was not arrested for open carry. the defense is trying to claim that part of the handle of the firearm being visible equals open carry but it does not.



This mantra of the gun rights folks always amuses me. obviously if the police in their work operate don innocent until proven guilty they would never arrest anyone or charge them with anything.

"innocent until proven guilty" has it's place, but that place is the courtroom not the street.
^^
True, but if the AG has their way, then this norm; 95% of the public is guilty of carrying illegally, so therefore, this is reason enough to stop a person and force them to provide a defense just upon a stat.

The problem I see with the AGs comments is, they are incorporated in the Appeal, which if the appeal is upheld in their favor; then their 'opinion' can/will be used as settled law.

I don't like this case, period. The fact the officer saw the gun from a distance, i.e. open carry (prior to the search), however, the guy was charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon....leaves me with some distress. Why didn't they charge him with illegally open carrying? But I will contend I did not read the initial trial info, just the appellate info.

But to your point, it is the AGs opinion...in their response to the appeal to the Supreme Court of Florida.



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Old 10-10-2012, 09:17   #52
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Really? Where have officers gone on record saying no one should carry? I keep reading things like this on the internet and yet, oddly, I never seem to hear anything like it in real life.
I sit next to a former LAPD officer and he tells me that he thinks his job would have been a lit easier if all law abiding folks carried.

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Old 10-10-2012, 10:26   #53
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True, but if the AG has their way, then this norm; 95% of the public is guilty of carrying illegally, so therefore, this is reason enough to stop a person and force them to provide a defense just upon a stat.
I agree, but keeping it in context an AG's opinion stated in a brief does not equal the AG's opinion becomes law even if the State wins. What will become case law is what the Court rules and they virtually always state their reasons for their rulings. THAT is where I would be concerned, not what some imbecile AG says.


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I don't like this case, period. The fact the officer saw the gun from a distance, i.e. open carry (prior to the search), however, the guy was charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon....leaves me with some distress. Why didn't they charge him with illegally open carrying? But I will contend I did not read the initial trial info, just the appellate info.
In the view of the State he was NOT open carrying. ANd the case does not hinge on open carry other than it is what the Defense is trying to claim.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:27   #54
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I sit next to a former LAPD officer and he tells me that he thinks his job would have been a lit easier if all law abiding folks carried.

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I can think of several occasions when Armed citizens made my job much easier. Usually in cases where we arrived to find the BG shot or DOA.

One case a drug dealing thug tried breaking in on an old man. The old guy shot him a couple times with a .22 the thug survived. Since the old guys ratty sat. night special .22 was now evidence we took up a collection and got him a .38
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:33   #55
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I can think of several occasions when Armed citizens made my job much easier. Usually in cases where we arrived to find the BG shot or DOA.

One case a drug dealing thug tried breaking in on an old man. The old guy shot him a couple times with a .22 the thug survived. Since the old guys ratty sat. night special .22 was now evidence we took up a collection and got him a .38
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:43   #56
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.... Since the old guys ratty sat. night special .22 was now evidence we took up a collection and got him a .38

Now that right there is what you call a very heart-warming story. Very generous and charitable of you.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:48   #57
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Now that right there is what you call a very heart-warming story. Very generous and charitable of you.
it wasn't completely altruistic, we were hoping he would trim the thug population a bit more and next time not just wound them.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:53   #58
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it wasn't completely altruistic, we were hoping he would trim the thug population a bit more and next time not just wound them.

Both good reasons and a very nice gesture

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Old 10-10-2012, 12:19   #59
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I agree, but keeping it in context an AG's opinion stated in a brief does not equal the AG's opinion becomes law even if the State wins. What will become case law is what the Court rules and they virtually always state their reasons for their rulings. THAT is where I would be concerned, not what some imbecile AG says.

It doesn't make it law, but, it also doesn't prevent a local PA from utilizing the comments to influence their charges/cases. Regardless of what the court says, some one will use the language and the premise to help justify their case, regardless if it applies or not. Both sides of this case seem to accuse the other of using precedents out of context. Full disclosure...IANAL



In the view of the State he was NOT open carrying. ANd the case does not hinge on open carry other than it is what the Defense is trying to claim. Hence the concern...they admit it was visible...but he was charged with illegally concealing.
Just my thoughts....as disclosed above IANAL....but I have recently stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.

It'll be interesting to see how the Supreme rules on this.



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Old 10-10-2012, 14:10   #60
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rvrctyrngr
Thanks for posting that case as I couldn't for the life of me remember which one it was!

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