[weagle]

Originally Posted by fredj338

You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.

Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

[weagle]

Originally Posted by scccdoc

Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?

In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.

[scccdoc]

Originally Posted by weagle

Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

To each his own. But I will shoot through sheet rock if he does not respond to my invitation to give me a clear shot................

[scccdoc]

Originally Posted by weagle

In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.

As I said above,"to each his own". That post was written about 25 minutes ago but got hung up here before I could proof read and submit. Hope neither of us ever have to test out our theories.......... DOC

[pokersamurai]

IMO anything birdshot can do, buckshot can do better.

Also, to me the whole over-penetration thing seems to be blown way out of proportion. First of all, if you just hit what you're aiming at then over-penetration does not matter. A miss with birdshot is going to be way more dangerous than #1 buckshot (my preferred HD load) that hits the bad guy. Even if #1 buck does penetrate all the way through the BG and through a sheet rock wall it's going to have lost so much energy that its going to be no more dangerous than birdshot that misses.

The way I look at it, a person shot with birdshot MAY CHOOSE to stop after getting hit. However, a person shot with buckshot will usually have no choice in the matter.

[weagle]

[QUOTE=pokersamurai;19504354
The way I look at it, a person shot with birdshot MAY CHOOSE to stop after getting hit. [/QUOTE]

30 years of experience in a level 1 trauma center points out that is just not the case.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of buckshot, it is devastating But for my house, my "things go bump in the night", home invasion scenario shotgun, the turkey loads are my first choice. I have zero reservations about their effectiveness at the ranges I would be using them.

[pokersamurai]

Originally Posted by weagle

30 years of experience in a level 1 trauma center points out that is just not the case.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of buckshot, it is devastating But for my house, my "things go bump in the night", home invasion scenario shotgun, the turkey loads are my first choice. I have zero reservations about their effectiveness at the ranges I would be using them.

I understand completely, we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect your choice based on your experience and your HD application.

I hope neither of us ever find ourselves in a situation where we have to use our shotguns for self defense, but if we do I hope our loads work.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by weagle

Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.

To say choke means nothing @ 7yds tells me you either do not test your sg loads or have never used an open/riot choke, Yes it matters. A mod choke will reduce the spread to 2-3" @ 21ft, that is signifcant. Again, I wet pheasant @ approx 50ft w/ mod choke & #6 & had most pellets stop inside the bird & many right under the skin, not comforting for SD, but hey, your life. My own test prove diff than complete obliteration of anything @ 21ft w/ an open/riot choke.


That was a #6 shot @ 21ft from a 870 riot bbl thru 2 layers of denim. Note none of the #6 went thru the ribs on the right. The left were smashed & broken using #4 buck. I know which would end the fight sooner than later. Yes choke matters at any distance but contact.

[Tiro Fijo]

Birdshot in a pinch if nothing else is available, but #1 buck is the best of all.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo

Birdshot in a pinch if nothing else is available, but #1 buck is the best of all.

#1 is indeed great.

How mine patterns at 75 feet



21 feet (plus some 00 to the cranium)

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Warp

#1 is indeed great.

How mine patterns at 75 feet



21 feet (plus some 00 to the cranium)

Nice pics!

[scccdoc]

Here is a thread and a quote from earlier today...........



Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns

Also, it’s worth noting that during my courses or when I shoot in my DVDs, every time I shoot I’m firing law enforcement rounds of 1600 feet/second slugs, or 1500/second 00 buck. I’m not going out there running birdshot; you know if we went out there and ran birdshot #7 or #8 I could actually employ the gun much faster. My whole goal is to demonstrate and teach what’s very realistic.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by scccdoc

Here is a thread and a quote from earlier today...........



Chris Costa on HD shotguns and handguns

Also, it’s worth noting that during my courses or when I shoot in my DVDs, every time I shoot I’m firing law enforcement rounds of 1600 feet/second slugs, or 1500/second 00 buck. I’m not going out there running birdshot; you know if we went out there and ran birdshot #7 or #8 I could actually employ the gun much faster. My whole goal is to demonstrate and teach what’s very realistic.

Nice link!

[Providence]

It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!

[Providence]

Originally Posted by Providence

It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!

sorry, I was referring to the Chris Costa interview.




Please vote! It's that important!

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Providence

It was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown.


Please vote! It's that important!

For Romney!!!