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Old 10-11-2012, 06:59   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
May be but if you're going into a post office for stamps, isn't that one of the official uses of a post office?

This one's going to get into the courts a few times before it's ironed out. Right now even the post office is posting horse feathers with some of the signs actually stating the US Code forbids carry there.
thats my post office big signs ..
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:05   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCC View Post
thats my post office big signs ..
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/39C4.txt

39 USC 410:
Quote:
§ 410. Application of other laws

Release date: 2003-06-24

(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;
Basically Title 18 doesn't pertain to the topic under discussion, CCW in a post office, at all.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:13   #23
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Just walk into your local postmaster's office, lay your weapon on his desk and ask if its ok to carry inside the po.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:32   #24
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Remember, it's not just the post office, and not just the federal building, it's the entire property - including the parking lot.

Park your car somewhere else.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:33   #25
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Originally Posted by rhikdavis View Post
Just walk into your local postmaster's office, lay your weapon on his desk and ask if its ok to carry inside the po.
THAT is not the point!

However, if you want to be a test case: Go ahead and do it! Get yourself a good lawyer; resign yourself to, 'dumping' a lot of cash; and, ....... in my opinion, you have an excellent chance of having the case thrown out of court.

Quite frankly I don't see how a case like this could be successfully prosecuted ACCORDING TO THE REGULATIONS; but I'm not a lawyer, so don't take either my word or opinion for anything.

There is one legal problem I think you might have to worry about, though: The rules of common trespass! However, in order to enforce most local trespass laws you, first, have to be told to leave the property and, then, refuse to do so.

THAT is a misdemeanor.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:38   #26
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Originally Posted by 4Rules View Post
Remember, it's not just the post office, and not just the federal building, it's the entire property - including the parking lot.

Park your car somewhere else.
Yup! I've thought about this, too. Know what? There must be hundreds - if not thousands - of people in Pennsylvania who violate this regulation everyday, 5 days each week! (I'm NOT saying these people are lawbreakers; I'm simply saying that I'm certain numerous Pennsylvanians carry their EDC's into post offices everyday of the week.)
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:57   #27
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This is one of those things that you might buck. In the end, it will cost you about $20K to do it but if it's that important to you, I say "Party On!"

I ditch my CHL handgun before I enter the Bank or Post Office. I prefer to pick my fights and will battle over something more important to me. Right or wrong isn't the issue. Are you willing to commit a big chunk of your life savings to make the point?

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Old 10-11-2012, 08:23   #28
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Here, I'll help you out too.

Here are all the US Code sections that are in Title 18 and have to do with mail and mail property:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...t-I/chapter-83

Theft, destruction, mailing firearms, falsification, obstruction of mail, etc are all covered. Those are exactly what you're talking about with the burglarizing of the USPS facility.

Now, show me where any of that has anything to do with carrying a firearm on USPS property, please.

I am uncertain that those are the only sections of Title 18 that have to do with the Post Office. Here is a guy who was convicted of burglary http://openjurist.org/821/f2d/1306/u...ates-v-burkett including maybe one or two other sections of Title 18, including section 1361 which seems to be destruction of any government property, not specifically just Post Offices.

You are welcome to the thought that the part of Title 18 that governs carrying of firearms on US Property does not apply to the Post Office because the Post Office is a private corporation. My concern with that is that unlike most private corporations, the US Post Office appears to have its very own police department and Inspection Service who seem to have powers of arrest and the ability to prosecute and convict using any of several sections of Title 18, some of which specifically reference the Postal Service and some of which seem to be very generic sections that apply to all federal facilities.

As I said you don't have to specifically convince me that the part of Title 18 that covers carrying firearms in federal facilities does not apply to the Post Office. But someone may end up having to convince the Postal Inspection Service or more expensively an assistant US Attorney or far more expensively a federal court judge that that section does not apply. I will join the list of those here who would opt out of that attempt.

I agree with the thought that this ultimately may have to be clarified in federal court. I am certain that would be very expensive. I am also certain that some on one side of the court would suggest that the legslative intent of Title 18 was clear.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:34   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Rules View Post
Remember, it's not just the post office, and not just the federal building, it's the entire property - including the parking lot.

Park your car somewhere else.
Two questions here:

1) What does a federal building have to do with a Post Office?
and
2) What law forbids a handgun in your car in a Post Office parking lot?
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:48   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
I am uncertain that those are the only sections of Title 18 that have to do with the Post Office. Here is a guy who was convicted of burglary http://openjurist.org/821/f2d/1306/u...ates-v-burkett including maybe one or two other sections of Title 18, including section 1361 which seems to be destruction of any government property, not specifically just Post Offices.

You are welcome to the thought that the part of Title 18 that governs carrying of firearms on US Property does not apply to the Post Office because the Post Office is a private corporation. My concern with that is that unlike most private corporations, the US Post Office appears to have its very own police department and Inspection Service who seem to have powers of arrest and the ability to prosecute and convict using any of several sections of Title 18, some of which specifically reference the Postal Service and some of which seem to be very generic sections that apply to all federal facilities.

As I said you don't have to specifically convince me that the part of Title 18 that covers carrying firearms in federal facilities does not apply to the Post Office. But someone may end up having to convince the Postal Inspection Service or more expensively an assistant US Attorney or far more expensively a federal court judge that that section does not apply. I will join the list of those here who would opt out of that attempt.

I agree with the thought that this ultimately may have to be clarified in federal court. I am certain that would be very expensive. I am also certain that some on one side of the court would suggest that the legslative intent of Title 18 was clear.
That's a lot of words to say you have nothing about carrying on PO property.

Postal Inspectors are series 1811, federal employees, who uphold federal laws. No one is disputing that.

Postal Employees are not federal employees.

Your continuing to use burglary stuff has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I can show you in black and white where postal employees are not federal employees.

I can show you in black and white where theft of mail is a federal offense.

You cannot show me in black and white where carrying a firearm is illegal. If it were illegal to have a firearm on postal property, then how could it possibly be legal to mail a rifle?

I can also show you where if "or for official purposes" is not a legit defense, the max they could give you is
Quote:
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both.
but you still cannot show me where it's written illegal to carry onto postal property as that above would only be within the building.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:54   #31
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Originally Posted by ROGER4314 View Post
This is one of those things that you might buck. In the end, it will cost you about $20K to do it but if it's that important to you, I say "Party On!"

I ditch my CHL handgun before I enter the Bank or Post Office. I prefer to pick my fights and will battle over something more important to me. Right or wrong isn't the issue. Are you willing to commit a big chunk of your life savings to make the point?

Flash

Just curious, why not carry concealed in the bank?

I can't think of a better place to protect yourself than a bank including walking to the bank from your car and walking back to your car from the bank.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:55   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROGER4314 View Post
This is one of those things that you might buck. In the end, it will cost you about $20K to do it but if it's that important to you, I say "Party On!"

I ditch my CHL handgun before I enter the Bank or Post Office. I prefer to pick my fights and will battle over something more important to me. Right or wrong isn't the issue. Are you willing to commit a big chunk of your life savings to make the point?

Flash

Why do you disarm before entering a bank? Is it properly posted in accordance to the Texas Penal Code with the 30.06 sign? If not, then it is legal to carry there.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:57   #33
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If you are certain that 18 USC 930 does definitely not apply to a US Post Office I am presuming that you have no hesitation to carry into a Post Office. As I said I would be reluctant to want to test that theory.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:58   #34
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"Besides, as every well-informed American citizen knows: It's the guys ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POST OFFICE COUNTER that you really have to worry about!) "


What an uninformed stupid remark. There's no excuse for ignorance.

Last edited by Filhar; 10-11-2012 at 09:07..
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:07   #35
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Originally Posted by Filhar View Post
"Besides, as every well-informed American citizen knows: It's the guys ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE POST OFFICE COUNTER that you really have to worry about!) "


What an uninformed stupid remark. There's no excuse for ignorance.
Why? To the best of my knowledge, most massacres at the Post Office have been done by Post Office Workers, hence the term, "Going Postal"

To the OP's question, Yes, I carry at the Post Office.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:41   #36
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Sure, I carried in my post office yesterday. Didn't make attempts to impress other customers of my armed status though.
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Old 10-11-2012, 13:08   #37
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Old 10-11-2012, 13:29   #38
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
Two questions here:

1) What does a federal building have to do with a Post Office?
and
2) What law forbids a handgun in your car in a Post Office parking lot?
handgunlaw.us is a great resource. Anyone with any questions should go there first, but here are a few links that might be related to the thread topic:

39 CFR 232.1 - Conduct on postal property.
Quote:
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to— (i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;
(ii) With respect to sections 232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such sidewalks.
_ _ _

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/232.1
40 USC § 1315 - Law enforcement authority of Secretary of Homeland Security for protection of public property
Quote:
(a) In General.— To the extent provided for by transfers made pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002, the Secretary of Homeland Security (in this section referred to as the “Secretary”) shall protect the buildings, grounds, and property that are owned, occupied, or secured by the Federal Government (including any agency, instrumentality, or wholly owned or mixed-ownership corporation thereof) and the persons on the property. (b) Officers and Agents.— (1) Designation.— The Secretary may designate employees of the Department of Homeland Security, including employees transferred to the Department from the Office of the Federal Protective Service of the General Services Administration pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002, as officers and agents for duty in connection with the protection of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property, including duty in areas outside the property to the extent necessary to protect the property and persons on the property.
(2) Powers.— While engaged in the performance of official duties, an officer or agent designated under this subsection may— (A) enforce Federal laws and regulations for the protection of persons and property;
(B) carry firearms;
(C) make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if the officer or agent has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony;
(D) serve warrants and subpoenas issued under the authority of the United States;
(E) conduct investigations, on and off the property in question, of offenses that may have been committed against property owned or occupied by the Federal Government or persons on the property; and
(F) carry out such other activities for the promotion of homeland security as the Secretary may prescribe.



http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/40/1315
18 USC § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Quote:
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to— (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930
YMMV
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Old 10-11-2012, 14:03   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROGER4314 View Post
This is one of those things that you might buck. In the end, it will cost you about $20K to do it but if it's that important to you, I say "Party On!"

I ditch my CHL handgun before I enter the Bank or Post Office. I prefer to pick my fights and will battle over something more important to me. Right or wrong isn't the issue. Are you willing to commit a big chunk of your life savings to make the point?

Flash
I OC in my bank.
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Old 10-11-2012, 15:44   #40
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So you've completely missed the entire discussion about the fact that Title 18 930 doesn't pertain to post offices and that there are no federal employees at a post office so there is no federal facility to consider.

Also missed the fact that the CFR has already been posted, by me, about carrying and the "except for official purposes" part where if I'm going in to buy stamps, I do believe that's an official purpose for a post office.

Plus there is at least one court case where a conviction for firearm in a post office parking lot was thrown out and zero for a conviction of that sole charge. NOT and "and a" charge, a sole charge.

There is a single case where a postal employee had a firearm in the "employees only" parking lot and was convicted of that but that was a limited access lot and not the general public lot so that's a different scenario from me going in to get stamps.

You might want to actually read the thread to see if what you're posting was already discussed.
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