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Old 10-11-2012, 12:05   #51
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Originally Posted by pugman View Post
Objectively speaking, the elderly may very well be one of the largest areas of concern. Why? As one of the ones under the age of 45 I realize all the money I’ve paid into social security and Medicare will never be received or at the very least nowhere close to what I have contributed. As the elderly continue to push for “getting what’s mine” they show absolutely no regard for future generations. Selfishly, I understand this perspective. Realistically, the idea of “retirement” in this country needs a serious redefinition. My BIL’s father retired as a teacher at 55 with full pension and medical benefits – he is 73 now. An elderly lady I visit weekly is 99 – she retired after 27 years on federal pension and has been drawing benefits and pay for 44 years. She has been paid more in retirement than she ever made while working. What happened 100 years ago when people got old…they continued to work or their families helped out. I’m not saying have these people starve in the streets – but at some point the choices THEY made in regards to health, lifestyle and education should be held accountable to them. Case in Point: that 99 year old invested well, had no children and lived her entire life as if it was the Great Depression as it relates to spending. Even today in her assisted living facility (which SHE pays $7,000 a month for) she asks me to constantly turn off her AC or heat even though she doesn’t directly pay for it. As one of the 53%, I’m sick and tired of paying for other people’s bad choices.

When I need to try and reform someone’s flawed thinking as it relates to the poor I have found I need to start small. Answer this simple question: If someone is making minimum wage, working full time and making a gross salary of $15,080 a year is it fair to ask this person to pay $1 in federal taxes? The obvious answer is yes. If you can’t answer yes then you haven’t thought through since this is the same person who drives on the same roads you and I do, went to the same schools, uses the same post office, is protected by the same military etc. If you can answer yes….then congratulations…you have elevated your thinking past the b.s class warfare politicians thrive off of and you are FOR raising taxes on the “poor.” Remember, these 47% of Americans have no legal tax liability yet use all the services I mentioned just like the guy who makes $100K.

The second problem is poor shouldn’t be a “category” but a moment in time – however, many Americans have made this a career. My wife’s grandma’s neighbors- FOUR generations under the same roof on welfare. The great grandfather is 53…do the math.

I have been poor – I had a grocery budget of $20 a week…a gallon of milk was a luxury. I also had no a/c, cell phone, cable, video game consoles, health insurance and put exactly $5 in gas in my car every week – BTW, the car was an old Escort hand me down which carried no insurance. I worked hard – like a regular 40 hour a week job and tended bar every Friday and Saturday night for 4 years then switched to adding alternating Sundays for another two years in my 20’s (do the math that’s 58-70 hours a week). I work hard now-last year I was on a project working between 65-80 hours a week from February through August. I can do the math – the elderly today are basically robbing me of my money tomorrow.

You are right though…the poor do pay taxes. No one said they don’t pay anything – the point is they don’t pay Federal Tax which is a point no one can argue against because they don’t. However, as someone who isn’t poor guess what…I pay federal tax along with everything else the poor do…sales, property, state income, etc.

Citizens for Tax Justice produces an overall tax burden every year based on income – this is what percentage of your income ends up back in the government’s hands (Federal, State or Local). Ironically, the percentages are pretty similar at it relates to the total income made in this country. The richest 1% make about 20% of the income…and pay about 20% of all taxes….the richest 10% make about 46% of the income..and pay about 48% of the total taxes. The poor? Make about 3.4% of the income and pay about 2.1% of the overall taxes.

The point is people demonize the rich…or in this case the ones of us who pay into the system…guess what: We pay our fair share of taxes. The poor don’t – why? Our income is based off of working where the “income” of the nonworking poor is based off of what the government takes from my check. A nonworking member of the poor should not live better than a working member – but guess what, in many many cases they do. My MIL is one of them. On disability at 55 she gets food stamps, her disability check, heating and electric assistance for a time, low rent housing ($276 a month which includes utilities now) and her Medicaid coverage and benefits is better than what I get working. She spends her days gardening, reading all the books she wants, watches all the movies and TV she wants. Is she driving a Mercedes-no. Does she live basically a carefree lifestyle because of her own choices (aka smoking)…yep. Are you and me paying for it..yep. I saw the medical bills and payments for her inpatient stays over the past two years. She exhausted what she paid into the system after her 10th month.

You can’t lift the poor by penalizing the rest…and candidly its not my job to take care of someone else I don’t care to or someone who doesn’t want to take care of themselves

And for the record: let me introduce you to Pauline (aka the 99 year old) and let her talk to you about the Great Depression…this country needs to redefine “poor.” When being without a cell phone, cable and internet makes you “poor” we have serious problems.

Might as well throw this in: what do you think is going to happen to all those 47%’ers when the system crashes; it hard to predict but mathematically we are close to a system reboot…don’t think so…look at Greece, Spain. France, Ireland, etc.

Oh, Where'd we put that whiner-of-the-year award?

Ya know, pugman, if you were another Jobs, you'd not be so whiny. You had opportunity- opportunity insured by those old farts you despise- what did you do with it?

You are envious of the old, but seem to have forgotten they were getting up every day and going to work long before you stopped crappin' yellow in your 'nappies'.

Just sayin'
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Last edited by Skyhook; 10-11-2012 at 12:06..
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:55   #52
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Delusional thinking is spreading. Are you a disciple of the faux-prophet ayn rand? Perhaps that is why, beyond your own personal preference, you equate any taxation as theft. And as to your complaint of force, the folks in Little Rock, etc. also complained. Reckon why?
You seem really, REALLY enthusiastic about using violence against the innocent to fund your preferred programs. What was your childhood like?
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Old 10-11-2012, 17:05   #53
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Originally Posted by Skyhook View Post
Oh, Where'd we put that whiner-of-the-year award?

Ya know, pugman, if you were another Jobs, you'd not be so whiny. You had opportunity- opportunity insured by those old farts you despise- what did you do with it?

You are envious of the old, but seem to have forgotten they were getting up every day and going to work long before you stopped crappin' yellow in your 'nappies'.

Just sayin'
This is where the older generation, which I assume based on your post you are part of, just don't get it.

Whiner-no. Realistic-yes.

There was a thread the general section which went on forever titled "Retirement is not a right" guess what...its not.

The only thing which offends me is stupidity and ignorance. While those hittting the social security/Medicare rolls daily keep saying "protect my social security"...I've never heard one single one say "oh yeah, and protect it for my kids."

Simple truth: Social Security will be bankrupt by 2033. It started paying out more in 2010 than it took in. If the elderly are so noble, please tell me your plan to make sure I get my money - which by the way is paying for those on SS right now. Again, the simple truth is social security is a pyramid scheme. When it started there was 33 paying for every one receiving...fast forward and its now 1 to 7 and by the time the last of the baby boomers retire its 1 to 4. Yeah, its a good plan

Politicans fool the elderly into saying "we need to keep social security afloat" when in reality they should be saying "how do we sunset it."

I've never seen good come out of putting more money in the hands of government; which is where this all started. The problem is in part the poor don't pay any federal taxes - the bigger problem is the Fed continues to spend like a drunken sailor. Simply put WE ALL PAY TOO MUCH INTO GOVERNMENTS. When you consider up to 30% of your pay ends up back in their hands; hell the vig for the mob is usually only 20%-25%

I don't resent the elderly - I simply think any one of them which give me that "working when you were crapping in your pants" b.s forgets they were young once at well.

Maybe their age is affecting their memory
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Last edited by pugman; 10-11-2012 at 17:07..
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Old 10-11-2012, 17:15   #54
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I don't resent the elderly - I simply think any one of them which give me that "working when you were crapping in your pants" b.s forgets they were young once at well.
It's been known for generations that social security is eventually a dead end. And it's also true that the boomers are the richest generation in the history of mankind.

It's a little hard to really feel that sorry for people who invested into a known Ponzi scheme, and who, when confronted with that reality, demand to take their losses out of their kids hides.
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:38   #55
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Delusional thinking is spreading. Are you a disciple of the faux-prophet ayn rand? Perhaps that is why, beyond your own personal preference, you equate any taxation as theft. And as to your complaint of force, the folks in Little Rock, etc. also complained. Reckon why?
So if I am wrong, please explain why. I'd like to hear what exactly you feel is the reason taxes are collected. Enlighten me.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:37   #56
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Evil? In the post-modern world, evil is just a silly word used by moralists. It has no place in discussions about business... or taxation. After all, if one cannot expect businesses to act in a morally but to always and only be concerned about their bottom line regardless of who gets hurt, then why oh why would anyone expect that a tax code would be moral, regardless of who gets hurt.
You advocate taking from those who earn until they're "out of business." You advocate theft. You advocate destruction of incentive to work. You are evil.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:53   #57
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So how do we finance the government?
Make less government and it won't be so challenging.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:56   #58
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More people going after the 47%.

Have you examined who they are? Largely the elderly, who have worked for decades and are no longer working so do you really expect them to be paying income tax? And also the working poor. Who are working, and ARE contributing in the form of payroll taxes (Social security, medicare) as well as state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, etc. As a percentage of income, even with zero federal income tax, many are still paying a reasonably high percentage towards taxes.

So you're saying the elderly and working poor don't contribute? Well boo hoo...go cry in your bedroom....most of those have worked, or are currently working, just as hard as the average person around here. And those two categories are the bulk of the 47 percent you and romney dismiss.
The elderly? You mean the wealthiest demographic in the country?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:57   #59
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So what? They pay. Fine. A progressive tax structure works like that. Apply it to all "persons," including those fine "corporate person." Tax them up the wazo rather than letting them get a free ride. Tax them till the wingtippers can no longer have their bonuses. Tax them till they are out of business... or until than actually do real capital investment and real job creation in the U.S.
I used to think you were just a Progressive. I was wrong. You're a straight up Marxist.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:08   #60
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The only thing which offends me is stupidity and ignorance. While those hittting the social security/Medicare rolls daily keep saying "protect my social security"...I've never heard one single one say "oh yeah, and protect it for my kids."
I have.

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Originally Posted by pugman View Post
Simple truth: Social Security will be bankrupt by 2033. It started paying out more in 2010 than it took in. If the elderly are so noble, please tell me your plan to make sure I get my money - which by the way is paying for those on SS right now. Again, the simple truth is social security is a pyramid scheme. When it started there was 33 paying for every one receiving...fast forward and its now 1 to 7 and by the time the last of the baby boomers retire its 1 to 4. Yeah, its a good plan
Propaganda, not truth. The viability of Social Security has nothing to do with the number of children the Baby Boomers had. It has to do with the number of high paying jobs there are in the U.S.

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I don't resent the elderly - I simply think any one of them which give me that "working when you were crapping in your pants" b.s forgets they were young once at well.
When I young I was paying a substantially higher percent of my income in taxes and SSI than you are. Man up. Stop whining.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:13   #61
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Propaganda, not truth. The viability of Social Security has nothing to do with the number of children the Baby Boomers had. It has to do with the number of high paying jobs there are in the U.S.

Quite wrong old chap. Since SS is supposed to be a "return on investment" for the individual, the pay rate has nothing to do with it's viability. It is the robbing from it that has severely damaged it.



When I young I was paying a substantially higher percent of my income in taxes and SSI than you are. Man up. Stop whining.
i can agree with the last two sentences however
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:29   #62
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You seem really, REALLY enthusiastic about using violence against the innocent to fund your preferred programs. What was your childhood like?
I'm just telling it like it is. Sometimes the truth is like gravy and icing. Sometimes it's sour. It goes down hard. But there it is. Ain't nothing going to change it. Hyperbolic spouting about the innocent, etc. is about like a cat stretching and then going back to sleep. Because when you get right down to the ground about it... fair is not ever rationally associated with economics, taxation, govt., etc. It's all about power. Those that have it use it. Those who don't have it have to take the dumping of those who do have it... until they can get power. Then, the bottom rail goes up on top and the top rail gets a taste of living lower down. That's just the way it is. And fair is not remotely involved in the process, one way or the other.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:39   #63
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You advocate taking from those who earn until they're "out of business." You advocate theft. You advocate destruction of incentive to work. You are evil.
I do not idolize business. It is a convenience that serves the customer. Otherwise, it serves no purpose. There is no obligation the part of the taxpayer to privilege or subsidize business. If it can't make it, it dies. Someone else steps in and fills the demand.

Those who make money pay taxes. Tomorrow I will pay the taxes on my properties. Big deal. Everyone who owns property does exactly the same thing. Can't see a problem with it.

Those who make money pay taxes on their income... unless of course they are a multinational hiding their income overseas in a off-shore account. If they don't pay, strip them of assess and auction them to pay the bill. Someone else will step in and address demand. Fine. Meantime treat the pirates of commerce like pirates used to be treated when they wanted to rule the seven seas... give them the modern business/economic equivalent of a short rope and a long drop.

Now... is that evil? What do you think? Is it evil to play hard ball with those who want to play hard ball? Is it evil to take those who ignore any supposition of right and wrong and give them a dose of what they shove down the neck of everyone else? Evil? No, not at all. Justice... of the most poetic sort.
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:43   #64
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I used to think you were just a Progressive. I was wrong. You're a straight up Marxist.
I was wrong. Yes in so many ways... you are so very wrong. You are like a blind man trying to describe an elephant.
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Old 10-11-2012, 23:18   #65
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I was wrong. Yes in so many ways... you are so very wrong. You are like a blind man trying to describe an elephant.
You're a duck Bruce. Quack.

You used to rant against Obama. Call him the squatter. I've yet to see a post from you where you two actually disagree on anything.
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Old 10-11-2012, 23:38   #66
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You're a duck Bruce. Quack.

You used to rant against Obama. Call him the squatter. I've yet to see a post from you where you two actually disagree on anything.
You are blind. And... you are obviously having hearing problems.

The squatter? He is like yourself wrong on so many things. I do not feel any obligation to treat him or you with anything except the tenderness of 80 grit sandpaper.

Why? Because the squatter and his cabal of supporters are enemies of the state, demonstrated domestic terrorists. While you and your gang are more like the old boys who sit around sucking their inspiration from a brown bag bottle and blowing smoke... never doing anything beyond offering opinions of life blearily observed.
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:17   #67
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You are blind. And... you are obviously having hearing problems.

The squatter? He is like yourself wrong on so many things. I do not feel any obligation to treat him or you with anything except the tenderness of 80 grit sandpaper.

Why? Because the squatter and his cabal of supporters are enemies of the state, demonstrated domestic terrorists. While you and your gang are more like the old boys who sit around sucking their inspiration from a brown bag bottle and blowing smoke... never doing anything beyond offering opinions of life blearily observed.
What do you and "the squatter" disagree on, Bruce. I haven't seen anything yet.

Redistribution of wealth is big for "the squatter" and you're keen on it too.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:19   #68
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So how do we finance the government?
  1. Fee for service:
    Anything that has a direct individual beneficiary, fee for service.
    If you want to go to the park, pay an entrance fee that supports the park service.
    Drive on a road, pay a use fee that pays for the wear and tear you do to the road. This includes EVERY vehicle, POV, transit bus, school bus and every not-for-profit vehicle.
    Ride on government owed transit, pay a ticket price that fully covers the cost to operate the system.
    Want to watch Sesame Street or listen to NPR, put up with commercials like everybody else
  2. Get the government out of business:
    Why should the government operate a transit system in the first place. I don't oppose infrastructure, but let a private company run the railroad.
    If you and you friends want nature, band together and buy the land with funds from willing donors
Get the government back to doing only what it was founded and empowered to do. People don't mind paying for essential services like defense and safety, but balk at paying an endless stream of people who feel entitled to someone else's money due to some imagined social contract.

ARS
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:45   #69
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3. Get the government 'off our backs, and out of our pockets' ....

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Old 10-12-2012, 08:52   #70
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What do you and "the squatter" disagree on, Bruce. I haven't seen anything yet.

Redistribution of wealth is big for "the squatter" and you're keen on it too.
If you don't see the points of divergence, then it's time for you to see a eye doctor.

Redistribution? No. Simply not willing to go along with the concentration of wealth in the hands of only a few individuals. That is not good for the whole of society. It is about the same as feudalism, primogeniture and similar structures. A egalitarian structure in which wealth and political power is broadly rather than narrowly held is much to be preferred. If this chafes the post-modern equivalents of Louise and little Marie (Antoinette), well that's just to bad for them.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:55   #71
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I'm just telling it like it is. Sometimes the truth is like gravy and icing. Sometimes it's sour. It goes down hard. But there it is. Ain't nothing going to change it. Hyperbolic spouting about the innocent, etc. is about like a cat stretching and then going back to sleep. Because when you get right down to the ground about it... fair is not ever rationally associated with economics, taxation, govt., etc. It's all about power. Those that have it use it. Those who don't have it have to take the dumping of those who do have it... until they can get power. Then, the bottom rail goes up on top and the top rail gets a taste of living lower down. That's just the way it is. And fair is not remotely involved in the process, one way or the other.
Good post.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:03   #72
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Originally Posted by aspartz View Post
  1. Fee for service:
    Anything that has a direct individual beneficiary, fee for service.
    If you want to go to the park, pay an entrance fee that supports the park service.
    Drive on a road, pay a use fee that pays for the wear and tear you do to the road. This includes EVERY vehicle, POV, transit bus, school bus and every not-for-profit vehicle.
    Ride on government owed transit, pay a ticket price that fully covers the cost to operate the system.
    Want to watch Sesame Street or listen to NPR, put up with commercials like everybody else
  2. Get the government out of business:
    Why should the government operate a transit system in the first place. I don't oppose infrastructure, but let a private company run the railroad.
    If you and you friends want nature, band together and buy the land with funds from willing donors
Get the government back to doing only what it was founded and empowered to do. People don't mind paying for essential services like defense and safety, but balk at paying an endless stream of people who feel entitled to someone else's money due to some imagined social contract.

ARS
And if it's not profitable in some places to build roads or maintain post offices, or run fiber, we let them turn Third World? Won't those places turn into havens for terrorists and outlaws?
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:08   #73
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If you don't see the points of divergence, then it's time for you to see a eye doctor.

Redistribution? No. Simply not willing to go along with the concentration of wealth in the hands of only a few individuals. That is not good for the whole of society. It is about the same as feudalism, primogeniture and similar structures. A egalitarian structure in which wealth and political power is broadly rather than narrowly held is much to be preferred. If this chafes the post-modern equivalents of Louise and little Marie (Antoinette), well that's just to bad for them.
Since Reagan the redistribution of wealth has gone from the rest of to the super rich. Say anything about that and you're accused of being a Marxists.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:13   #74
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And if it's not profitable in some places to build roads or maintain post offices, or run fiber, we let them turn Third World? Won't those places turn into havens for terrorists and outlaws?
Notice I said the government should build infrastructure, just not offer service.

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Old 10-12-2012, 12:17   #75
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Since Reagan the redistribution of wealth has gone from the rest of to the super rich. Say anything about that and you're accused of being a Marxists.
Well, in fairness to people like me who have aptly labeled people like you and Brucev marxists, you have openly advocated here for democratic socialism.

Your words.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42