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Old 10-13-2012, 01:13   #61
JuneyBooney
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Originally Posted by DaBurna View Post
I know it's a HUGE "NO-NO!!" I had someone admit to me he did accidentally as he was out running errands and such... He got to the counter to buy a book of stamps... Then it hit him as he went to get the money out of his pocket.... An LCP!!!

He played it off and no one notices. Needless to say the SCARE of his life....I told him "U dodged a bullet today dude!!"

I told him "LESSON LEARNED" stop, think, and read signs! In addition OBEY FEDERAL LAW!! I liken his experience to a kid cutting the tag off a pillow or mattress!

Be careful & stay vigilant fellas!!
Don't you agree that it would be very stupid to stop the car, take the gun off the belt in plain view, place it in the trunk, walk in the post office for thirty second and ten feet, open the box, and then walk out, open the trunk, grab the gun, reholster without shooting yourself etc? Wouldn't it be smarter to leave the darn thing in the holster, walk in ten feet, grab your mail and walk out?
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:46   #62
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Part of my job is reading government laws and rulings and redistributing the meaning to businesses in plain language.
What is your take on this?
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
I suspect that this regulation may have been written exactly that way to be able to be used or not used as desired. It gives people at several levels lots of discretion and options.

I also suspect that 39 CFR 232 does not supercede other laws at both the federal and state level.

"(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to a fine as provided in 18 U.S.C. 3571 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations or any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated." 39 CFR 232 (p)
Then we need to reconcile with this:
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Title 39 - Postal Service

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:52   #63
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One thing being over looked here.

No state, county, or city LEO has any jurisdiction on federal property. UNLESS there is some kind of arrangement between the PO and an agency or the Post master requests assistance. or makes an arrangement with the agency beforehand.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:02   #64
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
One thing being over looked here.

No state, county, or city LEO has any jurisdiction on federal property. UNLESS there is some kind of arrangement between the PO and an agency or the Post master requests assistance. or makes an arrangement with the agency beforehand.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:13   #65
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Remember, it's not just the post office, and not just the federal building, it's the entire property - including the parking lot.

Park your car somewhere else.
My post office is in a privately owned strip mall. The USPS is just another tenant.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:26   #66
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My post office is in a privately owned strip mall. The USPS is just another tenant.
Good point, however, that would only make a difference in the parking lot and the sidewalks. Once you cross the threshold of the USPS leased space, you are inside a USPS property by virtue of their leasehold rights.
Quote:
Title 39 - Postal Service

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:53   #67
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Thankfully I already buy my postage for packages online, since it's a bit cheaper. Looks like I'll be arranging pickup for my packages too, since they won't let me carry inside of a post office. But I would like to see a set definition of "official business".
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:55   #68
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If only I was a ninja.


Then non of this would matter.


Do ninjas get the tactical badges and sashes too?
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:12   #69
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If only I was a ninja.


Then non of this would matter.


Do ninjas get the tactical badges and sashes too?
No, because there is no way to give them to them.

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Old 10-13-2012, 15:21   #70
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
One thing being over looked here.

No state, county, or city LEO has any jurisdiction on federal property. UNLESS there is some kind of arrangement between the PO and an agency or the Post master requests assistance. or makes an arrangement with the agency beforehand.
Am I following you correctly? It sounds like there IS no official local LEO business that can be conducted in the Post Office due to jurisdiction (absent agreements with the local agencies).

If that's the case, then the "official" business clause would seem to apply to "official business" regarding what's done at the post office, i.e. buying stamps vs the other interpretation "LEO on official business" at the PO.

I had always thought the "official business" clause referred to LEO in uniform performing official duties.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 10-13-2012 at 15:22..
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:49   #71
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Old 10-13-2012, 15:59   #72
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
Am I following you correctly? It sounds like there IS no official local LEO business that can be conducted in the Post Office due to jurisdiction (absent agreements with the local agencies).

If that's the case, then the "official" business clause would seem to apply to "official business" regarding what's done at the post office, i.e. buying stamps vs the other interpretation "LEO on official business" at the PO.

I had always thought the "official business" clause referred to LEO in uniform performing official duties.

Randy
My guess is that it'd be treated like private property, the local LEOs are not allowed in the post office for official duty unless they're invited in.

My advice would be to call up your local police station, using the non-emergency number, and ask them. I'm sure they'll be the ones that will be able to give you a definitive answer, since they're the ones you'd be dealing with if you get in trouble for carrying in a post office.

But if you consider a post office to be federal property, then I'd call your local FBI office, either instead of, or along with your local police station. Because if it's federal land, and you get in trouble, then you'd most likely be dealing with the FBI.

Either way, we're not going to be too much help here, since we're not going to be the ones you have to deal with if you get in trouble for carrying in a post office.
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Old 10-13-2012, 16:59   #73
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Am I following you correctly? It sounds like there IS no official local LEO business that can be conducted in the Post Office due to jurisdiction (absent agreements with the local agencies).
The rule does not say for official business it says for official purposes. LEO's are armed for official purposes (Not personal ones.)
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Old 10-13-2012, 17:13   #74
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
My guess is that it'd be treated like private property, the local LEOs are not allowed in the post office for official duty unless they're invited in.

....

But if you consider a post office to be federal property, then I'd call your local FBI office, ....
Actually the question might be better asked of either the US Postal Inspection Service or the US Postal Police rather then the FBI.

And in a huge, perhaps majority of situations, local LEOs absolutely do not need an invitation to enforce laws on private property. In fact one of the laws that is sporadically enforced on private property in this state is Obstruction of Justice FSS 843, which well more than once, has found someone seated handcuffed in the back of a Criwn Vic or Monaco or a couple models in between (and possibly before) when they mistakenly thought they could deny the police entry.

But I digress from the topic at hand.


Here is a good treatise on jurisdiction on federal property.

http://www.fletc.gov/training/progra...ranscript.html


And with due respect to Ms. Solari and Mr. Perry it seems in practice at least sometimes the Postal Service allows concurrent jurisdiction.
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Old 10-13-2012, 19:58   #75
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The post office is a private business, BUT it follows fedral regulations and federal laws. It is considered a federal building.Because of that, it has to follow federal rules. Unless you are LEO you are not allowed to carry in any PO. If its in a mall, you are fine until you step through the door of the PO. If anyone wants to carry in a PO, you go right ahead. I certainly will not. By the way, my uncle was a regional district manager for over 30 yearsand several other family members also work at other facilites. I might have a little insight.
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Old 10-13-2012, 20:22   #76
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And in a huge, perhaps majority of situations, local LEOs absolutely do not need an invitation to enforce laws on private property. In fact one of the laws that is sporadically enforced on private property in this state is Obstruction of Justice FSS 843, which well more than once, has found someone seated handcuffed in the back of a Criwn Vic or Monaco or a couple models in between (and possibly before) when they mistakenly thought they could deny the police entry.
Sorry, should've clarified more. When I said private property, I wasn't thinking home private property. My uncle owns a boat repair shop on land that is owned by the Marina, and they own a huge chunk of land, with a nice road going through it. And apparently the cops won't go down in that area unless they're invited in. Don't know why, maybe it's the only private place where cops won't go, but that's the kind of thing I meant when I said private property.
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Old 10-13-2012, 20:23   #77
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Should we be permitted to carry there? Yes.

Are we? No.

Have I ever? No.

Will I ever? Not until it's legal for me to do so.

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Old 10-13-2012, 20:25   #78
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Originally Posted by sirgarreth View Post
The post office is a private business, BUT it follows fedral regulations and federal laws. It is considered a federal building.Because of that, it has to follow federal rules. Unless you are LEO you are not allowed to carry in any PO. If its in a mall, you are fine until you step through the door of the PO. If anyone wants to carry in a PO, you go right ahead. I certainly will not. By the way, my uncle was a regional district manager for over 30 yearsand several other family members also work at other facilites. I might have a little insight.
I have never heard of anyone being charged with carrying a firearm on postal property except the one employee. I think employees are told to not carry because they may go "postal". It really is a crazy rule and i am sure it is broken daily by many people.
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