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Old 10-17-2012, 01:01   #221
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Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
You make my point well, Jesus (the Word as you correctly point out) was speaking to believers in the above verses. He wasn't speaking to unbelievers here. "The effective, fervent prayers of a RIGHTEOUS man availeth much", not the prayers of a sinner. He is speaking to His disciples here and also to those who will (then and now) believe on Him, In the verse I quoted above, James and John were disciples of Jesus and taught what they learned from Him.

You're taking what is promised to those who believe on Him and making it out to be for everyone.
Why would someone who doesn't believe in Jesus pray to Him? Is it your position that anyone who's prayers aren't answered is not a believe and isn't righteous?
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:17   #222
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She was, um, undocumented...

Shock...you mean Cain's wife was Mexican?
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:24   #223
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First, it is Noahide.

Second, Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law from G-d (i.e., from Genesis to Malachi); therefore, He was was within His every right as a true Priest of the People to proclaim the NEW Covenant between G-d and mankind. Jesus Christ, the Messiah, while fulfilling the "Old Law" also released the captives UNDER the "Old Law."

Do you think that Old testament Jews went to heaven? No way! They were waiting for the promise of the Redeemer, the Messiah, to come. This is why the Holy Bible states unequivocally, in Romans, Chapter 3:19 - 26, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier[sic] of him which believeth[sic] in Jesus."

See? It is belief in Christ, the Messiah, and Him alone that justifies a person. So knowing, if the Old Testament Peoples believed in the promise of the Messiah, so to them was the righteousness of the Creator (i.e., Jesus Christ) imparted and Jehovah looked upon them that believed in the Promise as being just as righteous as those that met Him face to face.
Wow, it is no surprise that people vote for Obama. Basing a belief on words written by Bronze Age, semi-literate, superstitious desert dwellers, is testimony to gullibility. This same gullibility brought us Barry O'Bama.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:37   #224
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You come across as sincere, and I appreciate that, but I've lived that life. I've believed. I've read the Bible, and not just the happy bits that preachers put in their sermons, but the entire Bible. I've prayed and sought. That's how we parted ways -- I realized that I was talking to myself. I'm not (and never have been) bitter, or sad, or disappointed -- I merely awakened.

regards,
-ArtificialGrape
AG, wrt the bold part. How did you reach the conclusion that you were talking to yourself? Also, to claim you were "awakened" is a metaphysical claim that God isn't there. Have you accepted the burden of proof to show that God isn't there?

Also, reading the Bible a couple of times cover-to-cover isn't much, honestly. I've read most of the NT books 16-21 times each over the last three years. It takes me about 7-8 repetitions before I understand the organization and major themes of most of those books, especially Paul's letters. My reading comprehension is pretty good. MacArthur recommends reading a 5-7 chapter NT block each day for 30 days before moving on. When I read claims that someone "read the Bible" or even "studied the Bible," I wonder if it was done earnestly enough. The Bible is difficult, especially the NT.

Later, DBD
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:10   #225
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AG, wrt the bold part. How did you reach the conclusion that you were talking to yourself? Also, to claim you were "awakened" is a metaphysical claim that God isn't there. Have you accepted the burden of proof to show that God isn't there?

Also, reading the Bible a couple of times cover-to-cover isn't much, honestly. I've read most of the NT books 16-21 times each over the last three years. It takes me about 7-8 repetitions before I understand the organization and major themes of most of those books, especially Paul's letters. My reading comprehension is pretty good. MacArthur recommends reading a 5-7 chapter NT block each day for 30 days before moving on. When I read claims that someone "read the Bible" or even "studied the Bible," I wonder if it was done earnestly enough. The Bible is difficult, especially the NT.

Later, DBD
As I've shared, and you've seen before, more of my personal story can be found here. Awakening certainly wasn't meant in any metaphysical sense. Freed à la The Matrix probably isn't any better Removing the tinted glasses of religion?

I saw no evidence of the supernatural around me. A literal Genesis could be rejected easily enough -- I recognize that many people reject a literal Genesis and still retain their faith. There is no compelling evidence of an active prayer-granting miracle-distributing God at work today -- I recognize that some people as yourself (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you) also accept this while retaining their faith. I agree that several readings of the Bible is not an in depth study, but I read a number of books on Christian apologetics, and after 2000 years of the Bible being studied, there are way more than 2000 interpretations of what the Bible tells us.

When looking around the world I don't see evidence of a past or present supernatural. Taking off the God glasses, along with beauty, I see the ugly, the inexplicably poor "design", the cruelty of "design", etc. It looks as I would expect for a world without a god.

Again, I'm not bitter, angry or disappointed, and I'm committed to making the most of this life (not in a hedonistic way, but in a kindness to others and don't waste the opportunity) for myself and those that I'm able to interact with because I accept this as the only life that I will have.

Best regards,
-ArtificialGrape
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:01   #226
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Before jesus all people in the world go to heaven if they are basically good people.

"See? It is belief in Christ, the Messiah, and Him alone that justifies a person"

This isn't complicated. Jesus reversed the law and added hell.

Before jesus all good people go to heaven. After jesus everybody goes to hell except christians.


If you want to say that I am wrong because non christians still go go heaven same as they did before jesus, then please say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
First, it is Noahide.

Second, Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law from G-d (i.e., from Genesis to Malachi); therefore, He was was within His every right as a true Priest of the People to proclaim the NEW Covenant between G-d and mankind. Jesus Christ, the Messiah, while fulfilling the "Old Law" also released the captives UNDER the "Old Law."

Do you think that Old testament Jews went to heaven? No way! They were waiting for the promise of the Redeemer, the Messiah, to come. This is why the Holy Bible states unequivocally, in Romans, Chapter 3:19 - 26, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier[sic] of him which believeth[sic] in Jesus."

See? It is belief in Christ, the Messiah, and Him alone that justifies a person. So knowing, if the Old Testament Peoples believed in the promise of the Messiah, so to them was the righteousness of the Creator (i.e., Jesus Christ) imparted and Jehovah looked upon them that believed in the Promise as being just as righteous as those that met Him face to face.

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Old 10-17-2012, 08:40   #227
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
As I've shared, and you've seen before, more of my personal story can be found here. Awakening certainly wasn't meant in any metaphysical sense. Freed à la The Matrix probably isn't any better Removing the tinted glasses of religion?

I saw no evidence of the supernatural around me. A literal Genesis could be rejected easily enough -- I recognize that many people reject a literal Genesis and still retain their faith. There is no compelling evidence of an active prayer-granting miracle-distributing God at work today -- I recognize that some people as yourself (apologies if I'm misrepresenting you) also accept this while retaining their faith. I agree that several readings of the Bible is not an in depth study, but I read a number of books on Christian apologetics, and after 2000 years of the Bible being studied, there are way more than 2000 interpretations of what the Bible tells us.

When looking around the world I don't see evidence of a past or present supernatural. Taking off the God glasses, along with beauty, I see the ugly, the inexplicably poor "design", the cruelty of "design", etc. It looks as I would expect for a world without a god.

Again, I'm not bitter, angry or disappointed, and I'm committed to making the most of this life (not in a hedonistic way, but in a kindness to others and don't waste the opportunity) for myself and those that I'm able to interact with because I accept this as the only life that I will have.

Best regards,
-ArtificialGrape
Fair enough. I appreciate your honesty.

To clarify my position on prayer (Note that these are just my thoughts. I don't claim to be a philosopher, theologian, or any other kind of expert in this area.):

I think God reliably answers prayers for more wisdom, more knowledge of Him, more closeness to Him, more faith, more love for Him and others, better understanding of the Bible, more self control, and similar things. Those are all certainly in God's will, so are guaranteed (I think LOL) to be answered.

Whether or not it's in God's will that one of my papers is accepted is unclear. There might be some reason that it's important that the paper is not accepted. Whether or not it's in God's will that I, or a loved one, lives to a ripe old age is also unclear.

Before someone presents the "problem of evil" as an objection to belief in God, I'd recommend listening to some of Craig's lectures on that subject. The Christian defense to the intellectual problem of evil is air-tight, best I can tell. Especially from a molinist view. The emotional problem of evil is extremely difficult to deal with, maybe impossible.

When looking at physical miracles in the Bible vs the apparent lack of them today, I think we have to keep in mind that most of the people 2000-3000 years ago would say they'd never seen one. As you know, one can be reading a section, especially in the OT, go one paragraph further, and 100 years has past. It seems that miracles mostly served to identify messengers of God.

Why is this important? It's important when someone's lack of faith is partially because they think that, if God did exist, we should see a lot more overt miracles today, thus forming an argument that God doesn't exist.

Have a good day, AG. I have to get to work!
DBD
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:56   #228
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Wow, it is no surprise that people vote for Obama. Basing a belief on words written by Bronze Age, semi-literate, superstitious desert dwellers, is testimony to gullibility. This same gullibility brought us Barry O'Bama.
I used to understand your sentiment, even though it is severely misplaced, as I too came as a "doubting Thomas" to the Word of the only living G-d; however, the Holy Bible is the only "literary work" has neither been proven wrong scientifically, nor has It been proven wrong within Its own scriptural context.

Notably, ever other literary work utilized by parishioners of other faiths have within them blatantly false scientific connotations as well as being riddled with unresolvable contradictions and or contextual errors.

For example, I have a version of the quoran, and it states that the sun sits everyday in a "mud puddle." Speaking strictly in a scientific sense, such a statement of fact is a blatant error. This is just one of dozens of gross errors that cause me to distrust the quoran as G-d Breathed, which if compared against each other as far as Science, at least the Holy Bible is scientifically correct on Its posits and assertions.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:07   #229
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
I used to understand your sentiment, even though it is severely misplaced, as I too came as a "doubting Thomas" to the Word of the only living G-d; however, the Holy Bible is the only "literary work" has neither been proven wrong scientifically, nor has It been proven wrong within Its own scriptural context.
This is absolutely unture. The Bible has been proven both historically inaccurate and scientifically inaccurate.

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Notably, ever other literary work utilized by parishioners of other faiths have within them blatantly false scientific connotations as well as being riddled with unresolvable contradictions and or contextual errors.
So does the Bible.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:12   #230
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Basing a belief on words written by Bronze Age, semi-literate, superstitious desert dwellers, is testimony to gullibility.
Mohammed wasn't just "semi-literate"; he was completely illiterate.

But Obama believes in him, just look at his gold ring. It says, "There is no god but Allah", written in Arabic script. We need to send Barry back to Kenya. Vote for the American, vote for Romney/Ryan.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:34   #231
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
the Holy Bible is the only "literary work" has neither been proven wrong scientifically, nor has It been proven wrong within Its own scriptural context.
You clearly have never read the bible cover to cover.

Quote:
For example, I have a version of the quoran, and it states that the sun sits everyday in a "mud puddle." Speaking strictly in a scientific sense, such a statement of fact is a blatant error. This is just one of dozens of gross errors that cause me to distrust the quoran as G-d Breathed, which if compared against each other as far as Science, at least the Holy Bible is scientifically correct on Its posits and assertions.
As opposed to a six day creation myth? What about talking snakes? Talking donkeys? Inconsistencies? Where did Cain's wife come from. How could every species on the planet be in walking distance of Noah's boat? Contradictions? How about the same god that commands to not kill then orders his people to commit genocide on their neighbors?

Bible Absurdities

Bible Atrocities

Bible Inconsistencies
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:37   #232
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Before jesus all people in the world go to heaven if they are basically good people.

"See? It is belief in Christ, the Messiah, and Him alone that justifies a person"

This isn't complicated. Jesus reversed the law and added hell.

Before jesus all good people go to heaven. After jesus everybody goes to hell except christians.


If you want to say that I am wrong because non christians still go go heaven same as they did before jesus, then please say so.
What you are asserting is perfectly backwards to both the Logos and Rhema Word of G-d.

Before the Messiah gave Himself as a fulfillment to/of the Law, NO ONE, repeat NO ONE went to heaven proper (i.e., to the Throneroom of Jehovah).


Prior to the Messiah's death on the cross at Calvary, those who died, but had kept faith in the promise (i.e., believed) of the Messiah's coming, went to what was referred to as Sheol. Through the covenant's Promise, Abraham went to Sheol, and some referred to it as going to be "at Abraham's bosom."

This is where everyone who believed in the promise remained until the Messiah died on the cross. Only after His death did anyone make it to G-d's Throne.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:40   #233
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You clearly have never read the bible cover to cover.



As opposed to a six day creation myth? What about talking snakes? Talking donkeys? Inconsistencies? Where did Cain's wife come from. How could every species on the planet be in walking distance of Noah's boat? Contradictions? How about the same god that commands to not kill then orders his people to commit genocide on their neighbors?

Bible Absurdities

Bible Atrocities

Bible Inconsistencies
I think maybe you should start a thread in the religious section of GT. This thread is about using fear to promote religion.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:45   #234
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I think maybe you should start a thread in the religious section of GT. This thread is about using fear to promote religion.
This thread is in Religious Issues now and I was responding to a point you specifically made in it. You obviously considered your unsuppotable assertion of the bible never being scientifically inaccurate and/or never being internally inconistent to be relavent to the thread topic, so I will refute that point here as well.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:06   #235
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This thread is in Religious Issues now and I was responding to a point you specifically made in it. You obviously considered your unsuppotable assertion of the bible never being scientifically inaccurate and/or never being internally inconistent to be relavent to the thread topic, so I will refute that point here as well.
My point was and is relevant to the thread's topic. My point centered on the fact that the Holy Bible and the covenants, both new and old, were not about promoting fear but about promoting salvation through the Messiah and Him alone as well as utilizing a compare and contrast synopsis between Christianity and islam.

OTOH, your diatribe concerns your narrow minded and limited knowledge of the Holy Bible both in general and on certain specifics.

So, start a thread concerning your topics as they are not applicable herein.
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"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:11   #236
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This is absolutely unture. The Bible has been proven both historically inaccurate and scientifically inaccurate.



So does the Bible.
Both of these responses are part of your overall opinion, which you are entitled to by the 3way; however, in comparing the Holy Bible to the quoran, the Holy Bible stands head and shoulders above based on science and inherent scriptural context.
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"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:40   #237
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My point was and is relevant to the thread's topic.
Which is why I refuted it here and why my response is also relevant to the thread topic.

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OTOH, your diatribe concerns your narrow minded and limited knowledge of the Holy Bible both in general and on certain specifics.
I spent my undergrad years reading and studying the bible cover to cover in an official acadamic setting at a christian university under the guidance of professors that possessed their doctorates in diviinty. I graduated summa cum laude from that program.

After that intense study, not only did I not have any of my original questions answered, I actually had many more. The bible is a horribly inconsistent document that offers only the occasional useful truism intermixed with a great deal of absurd myth and a lot of really bad "moral" guidance. I entered that program as a christian and left as an atheist.

What does your formal education on the bible as a literary document consist of? Sunday school classes?
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:51   #238
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...I spent my undergrad years reading and studying the bible cover to cover in an official acadamic setting at a christian university under the guidance of professors that possessed their doctorates in diviinty. I graduated summa cum laude from that program.
...
With this level of education and expertise, why did you provide the three links above? Many of the entries are either written by someone who is dishonest or lacking understanding. (I've only been a Christian for a few years, have never attended a christian college, and I can see right through many of them without even cracking open my Bible or using any other resource.)

I would've thought that someone who prides himself on honesty, objectivity, science, logic, and so on, wouldn't link to those.
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Old 10-17-2012, 13:04   #239
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I would've thought that someone who prides himself on honesty, objectivity, science, logic, and so on, wouldn't link to those.
The vast majority of those examples are valid points. I did spot a few that weren't really just criticisms, but the point I was trying to make (specifically refuting PW's claim that the bible has never been shown to be either scientifically inaccurate or internally inconsistent) is well supported by those links.

On lacking "understanding", I've come to the realization that most christians fall back on this as a crutch when confronted with the obvious absurdities contained in the bible. The argument usually goes something like, "You aren't understanding god's deeper meaning in the scripture". Well, that's just christians attempting to resolve the cognitive dissonance they are being confronted with. It can't possibly mean what it plainly says and for it still to be reasonable therefore it must mean something else, but that's just an equivocation. The bible means exactly what it says and most of what it says is just plain prepostorous.
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Old 10-17-2012, 13:09   #240
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Which is why I refuted it here and why my response is also relevant to the thread topic. ...
No, you gave a contrariwise opinion, which refuted nothing, but rather merely denoted your practically total ignorance on the subject matter's theme.

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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
... I spent my undergrad years reading and studying the bible cover to cover in an official acadamic setting at a christian university under the guidance of professors that possessed their doctorates in diviinty. I graduated summa cum laude from that program.

After that intense study, not only did I not have any of my original questions answered, I actually had many more. The bible is a horribly inconsistent document that offers only the occasional useful truism intermixed with a great deal of absurd myth and a lot of really bad "moral" guidance. I entered that program as a christian and left as an atheist.

What does your formal education on the bible as a literary document consist of?
Sunday school classes?
Liberty's home/online courses, now name your university.

ETA: Then start a thread as you are off base in this one.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 10-17-2012 at 13:17..
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