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Old 10-15-2012, 08:43   #81
scccdoc
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Being a newbie to black rifles, I'm learning iron sights first. I may go to an Aimpoint or similar set-up later. First things first for me..................DOC
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:48   #82
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My primary rifle is a Colt LE6920 with the standard carry handle irons. I have noting against optics and I understand all the arguments in favor of red dot's and optics as a whole.

I've been down the red dot road and I don't care for them. I find I can be just as fast with iron sights as I can with the red dot.

What about low light you ask? That's what a weapon mounted light is for. At the most, they make tritium sights for the AR if one feels the need for them. (I don't as long as I have a light attached to the gun.)

For me anymore, magnified optics are for my precision rifles and red dot's are a novelty in my opinion. I know a lot of you guys like the red dot's and if they work for you great! I don't like them.

With no magnification they don't offer me anything that the iron sights don't already do for me. They take up space and rely on batteries. I've heard all the arguments about how, "Fast" the red dot is. I just don't see it and I haven't noticed any difference in my shot to shot times or time on target to first shot fired between red dot's and irons.

Sorry!

Red Dot sights?

No thank you.

I'm able to reliably use my iron sights (on a regular basis at that) out to 400 meters and reliably hit a man size target and keep almost all of them on the paper.

I don't see how that's a bad thing and I don't see a red dot allowing me to do it any better than that.

A magnified optic will allow me to group tighter at that distance and have a higher hit rate but it takes up space, increases weight not to mention the greater possibility of something going wrong with my primary sight. Let's face it, no optic is as rugged as iron sights.

My iron sights get me from point blank to 600 meters. (Don't ask me about my hit rate at 600m ) But on that note, how often will a civilian or even a law enforcement officer be called upon to engage a target at 600 meters with either a red dot or iron sights.

Probably never.

As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible. For me, it's iron sights and a weapon mounted light. That combo hasn't failed me yet and I've used this carbine in several classes with great success. (Much to the dismay of the instructors that insisted that I have a red dot or some kind of optic.)

Iron sights for me please!


I would agree with all of this when I was younger but as I get older my eyes just don't react as quick to iron sights as red dot sights. That being said 1/2 my ARs still have iron sights because I like them better than red dot sights. I am starting to really like the 1x4 scope as a option as well.

That is one of the problems with ARs, too many choices before and after you buy one of the damn things!
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:44   #83
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I've been down the red dot road and I don't care for them. I find I can be just as fast with iron sights as I can with the red dot.
Hey, if you dont like them, you dont like them, thats cool. At least we have a choice.

As far as speed, with certain type sights, and certain situations, I can maybe see it, but not in most cases, at least not for me.

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What about low light you ask? That's what a weapon mounted light is for. At the most, they make tritium sights for the AR if one feels the need for them. (I don't as long as I have a light attached to the gun.)
Lights are great, and I have them on a couple of guns, but they suffer the same issue as the dots, batteries, and they are usually much shorter lived in that respect. They also can be even more fragile than the dots when it comes to getting knocked around, and in some cases, even just shot.

My dots are older Aimpoints, and stay on 24/7/365, and I change the batteries once a year. My lights get changed twice a year, needed or not, and only have a run time of about an hour or so.

Tritium on the other hand, works no matter what, as long as you keep them current. I have both red dots and tritium on guns I would consider for serious use, and all cowitness, so theres no need to remove the dot, should it happen to go down for some reason.

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For me anymore, magnified optics are for my precision rifles
Yup, me too, for the most part. The lower power scopes do work up close, but are still behind the curve compared to dots and some irons when it comes to speed.

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With no magnification they don't offer me anything that the iron sights don't already do for me. They take up space and rely on batteries. I've heard all the arguments about how, "Fast" the red dot is. I just don't see it and I haven't noticed any difference in my shot to shot times or time on target to first shot fired between red dot's and irons.
I noticed the difference right away, and still do. I still shoot a lot of iron sighted guns, most of which these days, isnt High Power type "target" shooting, but more reactive type shooting. I can snap shoot targets much quicker and accurately with the dots, even at, and past 100 yards.

The biggest difference I find between the dots and irons is, there is no "alignment" needed for the dots, you look at the target, shoulder the rifle, or whatever, and the dot appears where you are looking as the gun comes up. Squeeze the trigger, and the bullet goes to the dot, or very close to it, depending on zero. As you get older, not having to deal with alignment, you appreciate this even more.

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Let's face it, no optic is as rugged as iron sights.
Well, maybe. So far, I have yet to break any of my Aimpoints (or even knock them out of zero), but I have broken a few iron sights over the years, and some clean off the gun. They can break from impacts, just like the optics. Some are better than others, but they are not totally fool proof.

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My iron sights get me from point blank to 600 meters. (Don't ask me about my hit rate at 600m ) But on that note, how often will a civilian or even a law enforcement officer be called upon to engage a target at 600 meters with either a red dot or iron sights.
This is something I find is usually "target thinking" related more than anything else when it gets brought up. More often than not, its the .30 caliber MBR crowd thats really hot on it too. If you want something a little more realistic, take the top off an IPSC type target a couple of inches down from the shoulders, and put it on the ground somewhere at 600 yards/meters, and see if the shooter can even find it, let alone hit it. 36" bullseyes and erect black/dark green on white silhouettes dont really equate to realistic shooting.

Most battle sights, regardless of caliber are set at around 250-300 yards/meters, iron or dot, youre really dealing with the same thing.

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As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible.
I agree with you here, but with advances in todays gear, things tend to favor the combat proven optics over the irons. Not that the irons arent there too, they are, but just as a back up, should they be needed. Still, you should know how to shoot with them, and practice with them on a regular basis as well.

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Being a newbie to black rifles, I'm learning iron sights first.
And youre making the right choice in doing so. As with anything, you should learn to do it "long hand" so you know how to do it when technology fails (when was the last time you did a long division problem on paper with just a pencil and your brain? ), or you need to pick up something thats not yours, and put it to work.

Im still amazed at how many people cant drive a stick these days.


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I would agree with all of this when I was younger but as I get older my eyes just don't react as quick to iron sights as red dot sights.
Im in the same boat. I think once most of the approaching older crowd actually shoot them, especially away from a bench, they will find it hard to not move on.
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Old 10-15-2012, 19:33   #84
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Irons for now. Went against my better judgement and bought a eotech 512. Diddnt like it, and diddnt give it enough chance either.

I have a LMT rear sight. And immediatly found the button to be a bit of a pain to reach, couldnt find a brightness setting to fit, didnt like that its not always on (knew this before purchasing) Diddnt like how low it sat, and found the circle dot to be to buisy on targets. Like I said really diddnt give it enough chance, had it for less than 48 hours.

Now I have no optic at all and am fine with it but will be purchasing a aimpoint in the future. The advantages are undeniable. Irons work and have worked for a long time, no doubt. But they will never match the speed and ease of use as an red dot.
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Old 10-15-2012, 22:07   #85
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As far as I'm concerned, a defensive rifle should be kept as simple as possible.
might be right, but I don't consider any long gun I own to be defensive. I look at them as combat rifles.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:20   #86
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might be right, but I don't consider any long gun I own to be defensive. I look at them as combat rifles.
So if someone shoots at you, you're going to use a pistol to shoot back?
Any weapon can be a defensive tool.
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:51   #87
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He has a point snaps. Your long guns serve dual purposes combat assult and defense.
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Old 10-16-2012, 13:50   #88
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So if someone shoots at you, you're going to use a pistol to shoot back?
Any weapon can be a defensive tool.
Yup, I sure am because I'm not going to carry a rifle around wtih me. When I did, if somebody shot at you, you still didn't play defense. You found them and killed them.
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He has a point snaps. Your long guns serve dual purposes combat assult and defense.
not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.
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Old 10-16-2012, 22:18   #89
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not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.
But why are you shooting at them? Because they shot at you. Correct? True. As a civilian all legal shootings are defensive. Military as well. We are defending a nation against those that would bring violence against us yet again. Sometimes it's proactive, others it's reactive, but always defensive.
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:22   #90
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Yup, I sure am because I'm not going to carry a rifle around wtih me. When I did, if somebody shot at you, you still didn't play defense. You found them and killed them.


not at all. Of course I seem to have a big issue understanding people calling anything defensive. Anytime you're shooting at somebody it's not defense. It's offense, you're trying to kill them.

Defense would be more suppressive fire.
No defensive is why you are shooting at them in the first place to defend yourself.

Wow is this thread off the tracks.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:17   #91
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In good light with unlimited time, I shoot better with irons. In the real world, I shoot better with an optic. Several of our trainer rifles will use irons forever.
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Old 10-17-2012, 18:49   #92
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Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:15   #93
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Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.
Sounds like the guy doesn't shoot other than quals. His lack of familiarization is more at fault than anything.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:19   #94
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In good light with unlimited time, I shoot better with irons. In the real world, I shoot better with an optic. Several of our trainer rifles will use irons forever.
+1. I really like irons, growing up shooting billions of pellets out of my iron site pellet guns they are a comfort zone. Once someone "knows" their rifle with the irons that person can make incredible shots with it. That being said optics can take someone to a whole new level with speed precision if need be. I am still getting used to my optic but I love it.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:20   #95
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Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.
That guy sucks, its not the optics fault. It takes him forever to turn it on? Turn it on on the way to the range. Turn it on when you pull it out of the cage or trunk. Tell that guy to get a job in evidence or records.
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Old 10-17-2012, 20:29   #96
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Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.
That's not the equipment. That's a training issue.
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Old 10-17-2012, 22:05   #97
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A couple of observations or comments....

- There is nothing wrong with someone having a personal preference.

- Personal preference does not mean that there is not a better way of accomplishing something.

- Under non stress, or more ideal conditions to obtain a good sight alignment and sight picture some shooters can actually perform better with iron sights when shooting for precision. This is due to a better grasp of the fundamentals as it takes more skill and accuracy to align a dual plane iron sighting system as opposed to a single dot. Often times that dual plane iron sight will show more small imperfections in the sighting and better results can be accomplished by someone who is well schooled in all of the fundamentals.

- In combat or defensive types of shooting a red dot is undeniably a better option when correct training is obtained and correct practice is performed on behalf of the user. If a shooter does not adhere to this general guideline they are either...
1) Stubborn
2) Want to be different
3) Like being argumentative
4) Stupid
5) Ignorant of the topic (Don't know, what they don't know)
6) Relates to number 5 - Under or not properly trained and practiced with the red dot.
7) Have not experienced enough shooting situations / scenarios that clearly show the advantages.
8) Eye or medical conditions that does not allow use of red dots.
9) Are in the 99.9 percentile of shooting savants in the world (and I don't think anyone here qualifies).
or
10) A combination of any of the above.

Of course there may be other options that I missed, but that would pretty much sum it up.

Watch this video. This is a student of mine at the end of a 4 day irons only course. Obviously he is a top notch shooter but he was very reliant on his optics. We were able to take him to another level of proficiency and watch how he runs irons.


The key is that he is running in pretty traditional movements / positions. I don't think there is anyone who posted here that would outperform him, however he would be the first one to tell you that red dots outperform irons every day of the week and twice on Sundays and as the guy who trains many guys like him, I will tell you the same thing.

I can easily put people into real world type of simulated situations where they will easily see the clear advantages of red dots over irons with some quality training. I will say that if you like to shoot iron bullseye or are shooting for fun, rock on. If you like irons but understand the potential advantages of a red dot and still choose irons, rock on. If you poo poo red dots and think irons are always superior then see 1-10 above.
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Old 10-17-2012, 23:06   #98
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Off topic as hell, but I figure I'd throw it out there, once the first rolls around I can start moving my arm around again. (Scoped, minimally invasive) so I'm gonna give that whole grip you explained to me a shot and see how it works. Many MANY moons ago I was pretty damned good with those guns, we shall see how it works out.

THat said, I have a lot of trouble believing anybody who's ever had to do it for real would say irons over optics.

There aren't a lot of good sight alignment/picture shots taking place when somebody is shooting back. Putting a gun at an awkward angle that still lets you stay behind cover and pull a trigger is a hell of a lot better an idea than properly shooting wtih irons.

Given, guys like surf and others have done this in a much different way over the years than I have, but like I said somewhere else..... Marines are notoriously hard headed when it comes to changing things from how we've been taught. Yet every one I've known has quickly adapted to red dots and fallen in love with them. A lot of folks prefer ACOGs, but they're just not as quick.
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Old 10-17-2012, 23:15   #99
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Love irons. I qualified expert with the M16A1 and M16A2. Tight center of mass hits at 500 meters.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:49   #100
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Qualification last month, one guy forgot to turn on his EoTech and missed a string of fire. Tkaes him for ever to turn it on. His iron sights skills suck, because he is so dependant on the EoTech.

Irons for me. Only attachmant is a light.

That is part of the problem when people get so dependent on their optic they never train with their irons.
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