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Old 10-18-2012, 08:41   #101
Matthew Courtney
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
That is part of the problem when people get so dependent on their optic they never train with their irons.
I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:08   #102
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.
Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:11   #103
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I always have electronic sights, either Aimpoint, or EOTech, on my work ARs, but just iron sights on my fun ARs (I don't have lights, or slings, on the fun ones, either).
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:02   #104
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THat said, I have a lot of trouble believing anybody who's ever had to do it for real would say irons over optics.

There aren't a lot of good sight alignment/picture shots taking place when somebody is shooting back. Putting a gun at an awkward angle that still lets you stay behind cover and pull a trigger is a hell of a lot better an idea than properly shooting wtih irons.
I agree. Especially in low light.
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Old 10-18-2012, 19:01   #105
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Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.

Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.
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Old 10-18-2012, 19:17   #106
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I have a A2 carbine, had a A2 HBAR rifle. I like shooting irons as that was how I was trained.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:50   #107
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Well, using irons and using optics are two different things to master. You could choose to master one, the other, or both.

I'm not interested in using irons, spending the time and money mastering them, but that's just me.
Remember in a tactical situation you had best master the iron sights first because if the optics fail then your screwed.

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I always have electronic sights, either Aimpoint, or EOTech, on my work ARs, but just iron sights on my fun ARs (I don't have lights, or slings, on the fun ones, either).
See the above.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:55   #108
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Whats a good fixed rear sight to match my A2 front sight.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:57   #109
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.
Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:01   #110
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Remember in a tactical situation you had best master the iron sights first because if the optics fail then your screwed.


This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:32   #111
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I,m going to an RDS soon but not for HD/SD. I have an 870 with a Surefire and Glock 27 with night sights for that, it suits my personal home layout. The RDS (Aimpoint Pro, Eotech, or tritium version) will be for range fun or shtf (God forbid)(don't like the shtf phrase). To each his own.......... DOC
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:44   #112
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I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:50   #113
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.
What experience brings you to this conclusion?



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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post


This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.
Did he say combat or tactical situation?


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Old 10-22-2012, 09:52   #114
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I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.
Are there stats available concerning quality optics such as the T1/H1 and failure? That would be a good read.

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:59   #115
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Are there stats available concerning quality optics such as the T1/H1 and failure? That would be a good read.

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You can research it yourself. If you find anything, be sure to post here.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:14   #116
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You can research it yourself. If you find anything, be sure to post here.
Exactly what I was expecting.

What situations are optics not ideal?

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Old 10-22-2012, 11:25   #117
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I like iron sights on an AR. RDS and optics are an advantage in certian situations, but most shooters use them as a crutch. Optics malfunction. (ETA: Batteries die, glass cracks, fog, moisture, zero shift, broken mount, etc.) It's a fact. Irons rarely do. Better to master the constant, than to rely on the variable.
How much experience do you have with an Aimpoint or Eotech optic? You seem to be relaying concerns that aren't that realistic.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:08   #118
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Exactly what I was expecting.

What situations are optics not ideal?

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What exactly were you expecting. You wanted info on a certian optic? You do the research. My statement referred to optics in general. Unless you can prove optics do not malfunction, then your response to my statement was pointless, or you were attempting to start an arguement.

And where did I say optics weren't ideal? I did say in certian situations they were an advantage. Speed is not always better. Precision in most cases is.
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Old 10-22-2012, 13:09   #119
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double post

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Old 10-22-2012, 13:12   #120
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What exactly were you expecting. You wanted info on a certian optic? You do the research. My statement referred to optics in general. Unless you can prove optics do not malfunction, then your response to my statement was pointless, or you were attempting to start an arguement.

And where did I say optics weren't ideal? I did say in certian situations they were an advantage. Speed is not always better. Precision in most cases is.
I asked you for some supporting evidence to your statement. It was a general question. I supplied a specific optic hoping it might make your job of finding supporting evidence. I expected that you had none and I was correct.

You mention that RDS brake and irons rarely do. This would lead one to believe you feel optics fail more than rarely. I want to know where you found this information as I have never had a quality optic fail let alone more frequently than rarely.

You made the statement therefore the burden of proof falls on you. I was very polite about it but received the response I expected. Meaning I knew you had no experience or were in possession of any technical data to back your claim.

I didn't say you said they were not ideal. You said they were ideal in certain situations. That means there are situations you feel they are not. I was curious as to the situations you felt they were not.

So a magnified optic is less accurate than iron sights?

Thats it.

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Old 10-22-2012, 14:01   #121
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[...snip...]

Thats it.
I agree.
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Old 10-22-2012, 14:10   #122
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What's w/ all these jokers that make stern statements than get soft when asked to provide support? Right or wrong support your statement.
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:07   #123
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.
What if you, say, use a flip up BUIS with an absolute co-witness to your RDS, and train with the sites up, only viewing the dot through the sites?
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:33   #124
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What experience brings you to this conclusion?
He's self taught.
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Old 10-22-2012, 15:39   #125
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This isn't combat.

At worst we're talking about HD/SD, where a very babied, safe queen of an AR will be used. No need to worry about RDSs failing.
Very true. At close range, you can even point and hit with a long arm.
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