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Old 10-22-2012, 19:00   #151
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Do you two know what MOUT is? I guess you already answered that question w/ your above responces.
Yeah yeah, just funnin' with ya.
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Old 10-22-2012, 19:05   #152
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When a guy says the likelyhood of a MOUT situation is slim while sitting in the very definition of a MOUT backdrop it raises an eyebrow. Or atleast it should.
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Old 10-22-2012, 19:09   #153
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You fail to grasp the point. If that time ever comes you'll be thinking of this conversation wishing you would have listened to those with experience instead of arguing your "i read" or "i believe" and "i think".

Not trying to be a jerk about it but you need to take a step back and listen to those who have experienced the things you only encounter in your sleep.

There's always someone who knows more or has been through more. This goes for everyone.
No, I don't fail to grasp your point.

I can defend myself. Better than probably 99% of the people around me in a several block radius. But then I live very close to the Pentagon, so I really can't extend that radius too far.

What I don't do is live in fear of non-existant threats, I just try to focus on the real ones. I'm in a safe area, with enough cops around that the likelyhood of anything bad happening without a swift and furious LEO response is seriously, seriously low. I face far more danger of getting in an auto-accident, or getting food poisening, than urban combat. I'm more worried about using my seat-belt and watching out for bad drivers, rather than looking for the boogeyman lurking in the parking lot that would chose me as his potential vicitim, and not the young females walking around everywhere.

Bad things can happen anywhere, no doubt about it. But there are percentages, statistics and likelyhoods that normal folks understand.

This isn't Detroit or St. Louis, and I'm not gonna open-carry my AR around.
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Old 10-22-2012, 19:12   #154
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When a guy says the likelyhood of a MOUT situation is slim while sitting in the very definition of a MOUT backdrop it raises an eyebrow. Or atleast it should.
What raises my eyebrow, is someone infering that they think I might someday need to engage in my own little MOUT operation to clear the neighborhood of baddies that are out to get me.

Paranoia will destroy ya.

Don't hang out with drunkards, druggies, losers, murderers, rapists, muggers, and other first-class citizenry, and your chances of having to mow one down with your AR is dramatically lowered.

Nothing is for certain, but the statistics are in your favor of not having to go Rambo 2.0 if you pay a little attention to what you do, where you do it, and who you do it with.

Then you can, ya know....have fun in life.
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Old 10-22-2012, 19:18   #155
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How do you know how versed you are in self defense. What's your measuring stick?

Can MOUT not be confined to your home?

You don't seem to be able to see the whole picture and lack attention to detail.

You're not grasping the point or you'd be reading/listening and no longer typing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 19:31   #156
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How do you know how versed you are in self defense. What's your measuring stick?

Can MOUT not be confined to your home?

You don't seem to be able to see the whole picture and lack attention to detail.

You're not grasping the point or you'd be reading/listening and no longer typing.


Self-defense is something you obviously take very, very seriously.

Good for you. I'm happy to say I don't take it anywhere near as seriously as you do.

The rest of the world is watching baseball and having a few beers, and one other person is ****ing with you on the internet while enjoying the game.

If I ever have to shoot an intruder in my apartment, I will most surely NOT use the acronym MOUT while I describe how balls-to-the-wall I went with my AR.

Cops might think I'm crazy or something.

No dude, the real point is that you see threats and combat lurking around every corner, plan your life around it, and believe others should do the same. Go ahead and make all of the suggestions and share all of your thoughts as you care to. Just understand that normal, healthy folks see that there are many other threats that are statistically far more likely to be of real concern, so not everyone is planning for MOUT operations in their homes.

12 year old girls can pull off capping intruders from the closet they're hiding in.....so I'm certain you're gonna be o.k. big guy.
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:11   #157
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Self-defense is something you obviously take very, very seriously.

Good for you. I'm happy to say I don't take it anywhere near as seriously as you do.

The rest of the world is watching baseball and having a few beers, and one other person is ****ing with you on the internet while enjoying the game.

If I ever have to shoot an intruder in my apartment, I will most surely NOT use the acronym MOUT while I describe how balls-to-the-wall I went with my AR.

Cops might think I'm crazy or something.

No dude, the real point is that you see threats and combat lurking around every corner, plan your life around it, and believe others should do the same. Go ahead and make all of the suggestions and share all of your thoughts as you care to. Just understand that normal, healthy folks see that there are many other threats that are statistically far more likely to be of real concern, so not everyone is planning for MOUT operations in their homes.

12 year old girls can pull off capping intruders from the closet they're hiding in.....so I'm certain you're gonna be o.k. big guy.
Thank you, I do take it seriously as I have had to in my past and make a living doing so now. You are they type we laugh at and feel sorry for simultaneously. It's hard not to become jaded.

I guess I can't blame you for not understanding, you've never had to.

Being a warrior from the mean streets of Detroit you should understand the threats that may present themselves.

I'm more of a No Reservations, steak, and wine kinda guy. In fact I have a full stomach and a nice buzz.

I have a feeling that if balls and walls are involved in a home invasion including you it would be you against a wall w/ someones balls bouncing off of your inner thighs.
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:16   #158
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Thank you, I do take it seriously as I have had to in my past and make a living doing so now. You are they type we laugh at and feel sorry for simultaneously. It's hard not to become jaded.

I guess I can't blame you for not understanding, you've never had to.

Being a warrior from the mean streets of Detroit you should understand the threats that may present themselves.

I'm more of a No Reservations, steak, and wine kinda guy. In fact I have a full stomach and a nice buzz.

I have a feeling that if balls and walls are involved in a home invasion including you it would be you against a wall w/ someones balls bouncing off of your inner thighs.
When you say "we", I get very, very nervous.

Something about you and other heavily armed paranoid delusionals believing that bad things are ready to kick off that will require you to stage your own MOUT operation at the local dog-park, is disconcerting to say the least. Hell, I don't know, maybe I actually feel good about it, I'm not sure.

Please, make yourself available to me whenever I need you. Keep GT up on your smart phone. When the boogeyman comes to get me here in Arlington, when the Jihadists attack D.C. en-masse and I need to escape the area, I will contact you and you can come rescue me, my knight in shinning AR armor.
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:22   #159
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Cute.

You can use Aunt Sally (British term for logical fallacy) all you want. You're just falling further behind the curve.
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:24   #160
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Cute.

You can use Aunt Sally (British term for logical fallacy) all you want. You're just falling further behind the curve.


I no longer have to care about "the curve", I've got you and your AR a PM away, don't I Super Man?

Gosh, you're dreamy!!!!
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:35   #161
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I actually am a very attractive guy. It works well w/ the ladies. Rugged and attractive. Big hands. Size 13 shoe. Golden. Cha-Ching!
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:37   #162
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I actually am a very attractive guy. It works well w/ the ladies. Rugged and attractive. Big hands. Size 13 shoe. Golden. Cha-Ching!
Let's switch to PMs, we don't need to continue hi-jacking threads we're hopping back and forth between.
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Old 10-22-2012, 20:52   #163
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I'll end this now as the wine is gone and my steak is an ancient memory.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. People try to help you and others by pointing you in the right direction. The thing is despite the masses telling you are wrong you insist on arguing. You argue w/ guys who have outrageous amounts of hands on experience. When they correct you you go on a strawman fallacy trying to detract from their knowledge. It would be much easier if you just listened and sought the instruction you need. You would understand the things being talked about and not feel like one of the kids at the kiddy table during XMas dinner.

We all go through it. I work w/ guys who can run a handgun like crazy. I don't talk ****, I listen. My old boss was a trainer for Triple Canopy, I was all ears. I didn't take it personal that they knew more than me. I took it as a godsend and a challenge as well as a great opportunity to better myself. Pride is good but don't let it get in the way.

Take it or leave it.

Done.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:01   #164
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Most rifle shooters will shoot a RDS better if they master shooting with iron sights first. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the same for both irons and optics. Irons are less forgiving so they require more consistency and focus to shoot well. The consistency and focus irons help shooters develop make the advantages of RDS and optics easier to maximize.

Take cheek weld for example. With irons, a consistent chekweld is essential while with a RDS head position has broad parameters. Putting your head in the same psoition makes putting the dot on target very natural and easy. While varying head position complicates finding the dot on the target. When fractions of a second count, simplicity reigns supreme.
I agree 100% and it is a big philosophy in my teaching and curriculum. I mostly teach guys who have earned or proven themselves to be where they are at. They are top notch shooters, however I always break them down to irons and a rapid progression of revisiting fundamentals in a correct progression. 99.9% have always become tremendously better shooters as their training progresses into advanced shooting courses.

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I believe that rifle shooters should master shooting with iron sights first, and then move on to an optic. Learning with irons first forces a shooter to habitually get a good cheek weld as the rifle comes up and that will make them faster and more consistent when the begin to use an optic. Using an optic first, especially a RDS, allows a shooter to be inconsistent with their cheek weld and it is easier to train a consistent cheek weld from the beginning than to develop consistency once slop has been habituated.
I agree and I am sure you understand this, but for others reading there is much more than just cheek weld that can be benefited from training irons first. Much much more and I am not talking about just advanced shooters, but anyone even recreational shooters.

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Or, you could choose to address this from the opposite direction, if we're going to focus on HD/SD and what people choose to practice with when they go to the range.

If I chose to use a crappy racket, old tennis balls and use piss poor technique, should I just go ahead and keep practicing that because I chose it? Or would I be better served to buy decent (not the best) equipment and get some quality instruction? Would I be considerably better with quality equipment and instruction in perhaps half the time, or considerably less time?

Cheek weld means nothing for using an RDS at close ranges for HD/SD, where speed is king. So, don't bother wasting time and money with irons, focus on training with the RDS you would actually use.

This is not a good assumption or something that one should rely upon. A fast miss, is still a miss. Having a good consistent or repeatable shooting platform is the best option even if we are not getting a traditional sight alignment / sight picture as in reflexive shooting methods. However it should be noted that repeatable techniques especially with a rifle are much more benefited from more contact points on the rifle itself. Cheek weld is a huge plus if it is a viable option it should be utilitized.

Worried about finding the red dot quickly? Practice it. No matter what, you'll be far, faaar faster aquiring your target with a RDS than irons. Hell, the uber competetive AR gaming shooters don't even seem to use any cheek weld at all.

The fastest way to achieve a quick dot acquisition is consistency each and every time, which is most effectively done with a consistent presentation of the rifle, to include cheek weld. Most shooters, even highly experienced shooters will often "fish" for the dot when shooting from non-traditional or improvised shooting positions and will invariably be much slower. Your comment about "uber competetive AR gaming shooters" is 100% false in regards to cheek welds. I will also add that these shooters are also leaps and bounds ahead of 99.9% of all shooters and it is ludicrous to think that those 99.9% of shooters could hope to be able to perform, or get away with the things that they can do with a rifle in their genre of shooting.

If find it a bit disconcerting that some fail to understand that most people's time and money for shooting is not unlimited, and is best utilized by focusing on what you would really do in an HD/SD situation, if that is what we're to focus this discussion on.

Again I don't necessarily disagree with this statement, but anyone who purchases a firearm with the intent to protect their own life or the life of loved ones, should take the opportunity to get good basic training in the fundamentals. It is just like anything else, tennis as an example...Wouldn't I be better off learning basic fundamentals first, or just skip to the advanced stuff because I am short on time and funds? If I spent 100% of my time and funds on practicing 100% incorrect, where is my benefit?

Now if I had $1000 and a new shooter.....What is better a $160 Hi Point and $840 in ammo and turn them lose on their own on a range for two weeks. Or a $500 Glock $300 in ammo and $200 on a basic 1 day course? I can tell you which one would be more prepared and got more for their time and money.

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Very true. At close range, you can even point and hit with a long arm.
Yep, just like a shotgun. Point and shoot, no aiming needed. I don't think someone who does not even have a solid grasp on basic marksmanship fundamentals, say not knowing how to use irons effectively, should be relied upon with their lives to be able to do any type of reflexive fire techniques without quality training and practice.

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If you do not understand that using deadly force to defend one's family against an invasion of one's home is combat, than you do not have a sufficient grasp of the subject matter to be having a serious conversation about it.
Agreed

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That's understandable.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna head to basic training to get ready for it.

Sorry, my life does not revolve around fearing the world around me, to the point where I think I need to be ready for combat at the drop of a hat.

Ya know, like....well, like most normal people.

One way you could look at it, is that the world is not seperated into two distinct and opposite groups. There is not only uber-combat-ready types, and meek, sheeple, victims-to-be types.

There are huge chunks of the population that fall somewhere in between. Folks that can defend themselves and their families well enough to handle the majority of possible negative situations, but don't get into the COMBAT, uber-ninja mentality.

You wanna be ready for anything and everything? Great, spend what time, effort and money you feel is appropriate. I myself don't feel the need to be ready to fight off hoardes of terrorists trying to break down my front door. I myself feel comfortable in knowing I could handle the basic bad situations.

You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.
With 23 years scraping up the mess, I will say that the majority of people who are/were victims of violent crime (outside of criminals) never thought it would happen to them or that the need to prepare was not even close to a priority in their life. Fatal mistake for many of them.

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I find it funny that I don't find the same strife in other areas, like the General Firearms Forum, as is seen here.

Only here in the BRF are there so many people that are so passionate about being ready for anything and everything. The AR15, being the current Military go-to small arm, definitely attracts people that can take it as nothing less than their sword and shield.

Posting in this thread shows that there are several folks here that think that you are either an AR Master 3rd degree, or you're nothing....well, less than nothing, really. Like there is only black, or white, and nothing in-between.

Funny, but many, many firearms owners manage to defend themselves and their family with nothing more than an old family shotgun, .38 snubby, Grandpa's .45 he brought home from the war, or an el-cheapo whatever-you-have-at-hand....

And most of them never went to a combat/gunfighting training course, or served in the Military. Many folks manage to make it through tough HD/SD situations without an AR and combat assault training. Hang out in the GNG lounge a bit. Stories of un-trained people without ARs managing to defend themselves, their homes and family are posted all the time.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/19...ected-burglar/

Hell, it happens everyday in this country. Little old ladies that use a walker shoot intruders. CCWers that can barely load their snubbies manage to stay alive and pop some caps into B.G.s. Even children defend themselves from intruders using Dad's night-stand pistol....hell, a first hand account of that happening was just posted in the GNG Lounge. And I'm pretty sure that kid hadn't been through the SEAL assaulter course yet.

Ya'll do what you think you need to do, and stop thinking that it's necessary for everyone else to think and act the same way.
There are far far more stories of people who are statistics on the negative end of the scale than those who are successful at defending themselves. Preparedness is something that increases your odds of success and as a firearm owner who keeps a weapon in the home for defense proper training should go hand in hand. I am not talking ninja courses, but a good solid basic course. And no, I don't say that it needs to be an AR. Not in the least.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:12   #165
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1 AR - 1-4 scope with 45* BUIS and switch between the two as needed - 3-gun style.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:15   #166
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3 break-in and robberies, never when I was home.
So where were you when you were robbed??


Pro Tip: If somebody broke into your house when nobody was there, it was not a robbery
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:22   #167
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So where were you when you were robbed??


Pro Tip: If somebody broke into your house when nobody was there, it was not a robbery
You're right. I should have told the police that I wasn't robbed, since I wasn't there. Seems they thought I had been, since most of my stuff was gone.

Semantics is a beautiful thing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:23   #168
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De ja Vue.
Lol A friend of mine and I just had almost this exact same conversation at work today. Only he played mp15t, and I played mjkeat. I am not in the army but do undertand how serious a HD situation can be.

He had it all figured out. I told him something along the lines of. You have never ever been in that situation. Nor have I. You dont know what you dont know. Why just hope for the best. When you have every oportunity to be the best you could and increase your odds 10 fold. His basic response was very similar the MP15's. No matter the situation within his own house he won. He knows the layout and has an advantage and so on and so forth.

I'd go on about assume anything is possible and plan for the worst. He'd tell me abot some kid who shot a guy in the arm and the hobo ran away. I went on about statistically in combat you fall back to what you are best at, and how he was not good at much shooting wise (its the truth, I have seen this guy shoot).

Then he would come back with he was good enough to defend himself and how he could hit what he was aiming at. I would point out, it was usually within 7 yards and with a rifle and no stress even in the slightest. Add in stress/ fear and all the goes with it, and his odds of hitting even a human size target at close range were small. Then I would point out cops, and how they often miss even at close range, under real live fire. I also pointed out a few timed game of shooting tic tac toe another buddy of mine, and I did. Granted the targets were much smaller. But even with a recreational mindset and a tiny itty bitty bit of stress of time. Even at 7 yards my buddy often found himself not even close to paper. I do have a bit more shooting experience than him (it was a very unfair advantage as he has only been shooting a handfull of times ever. But like the first friend before the tic tac toe game. No matter the situation he was on top of it. After a few friendly games it was a real eye opener for him. and how even at very close range how far he could miss. Even with lack of experience, that guy is not the worst shot ever.
Then my friend (whom the conversation started with) would come back with some random guy who won a gun fight by a wing and a prayer.

It always came back down to why not take it more seriously? Listen to guys who have been there done that, got the T shirt and wrote the book. Chances are they know much much more than him or me. He's still at the point of he will always win the gunfight. Its unrealistic and to me sad.

I swear it was this exact same conversation. Thats funny. To me SD/HD is not a game, to him COD is telling the truth. And he was always the champ in his own mind. Any HD/SD should be taken 100% as serious as any other combat. It may only last a couple minuets or less. But during that time (if it ever happens) you are at war and it should be taken as such.

And in 2012 scenarios of the type, home invasion, mass shootings, burgerlary. Due to media, job loss, and just screwed up people in general. Chances are more and more likely than ever before. Its not a game, its you, and your families lives. Why assume you are the best, when you know damn well you arnt. And when opportunites to be better are so available, why not use that resource(s).

I think we are gonna go shooting this weekend and play some tic tac toe to give him a better understanding of reality. The only good point he made is it doesnt happen to him everyday. Fair enough and true.
And for most dedicating life to being a better shooter is not realistic. However, instead of just goofing off 100% of the time at the range. And in your own mind being the best thing since beer. Why not take the information others give, use it and apply it and seek out more. It doesnt mean you have to dedicate your life to it. But at least take it as serious as you would driving your car with a child inside. Use appropriate precautions, be smart, be safe, and be somewhat skilled. You had to get the basics before taking your DL test. Same with HD/SD. Life dedication? No but something to strive to be continuously better at.

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Old 10-22-2012, 21:28   #169
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You're right. I should have told the police that I wasn't robbed, since I wasn't there. Seems they thought I had been, since most of my stuff was gone.

Semantics is a beautiful thing.
The proper definition of terms is pivotal to having a meaningful conversation.

Burglary is not robbery. They are two distinctly different things.

If your house was broken into while you were gone, and nobody else (besides the burglar(s)) was there, a burglary was committed. Not a robbery.

Given that this is a firearms forum and we are talking about self defense, it is pretty important to be able to differentiate between these.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:43   #170
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Why are people still talking after post #164?

MP15T, this is exactly what I am talking about. A guy who trains guys lightyears ahead of any of us speaks and yet you continue.
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Old 10-22-2012, 21:55   #171
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I think you two need to **** and get it over with.




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Old 10-23-2012, 02:23   #172
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........
Preparedness is something that increases your odds of success and as a firearm owner who keeps a weapon in the home for defense proper training should go hand in hand. I am not talking ninja courses, but a good solid basic course. And no, I don't say that it needs to be an AR. Not in the least.

Outstanding,..........thanks for the perspective Surf
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:29   #173
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Why are people still talking after post #164?

MP15T, this is exactly what I am talking about. A guy who trains guys lightyears ahead of any of us speaks and yet you continue.

This has become the forum of the drama queens.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:28   #174
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
This has become the forum of the drama queens.
In order to have a meaningful discussion, we need to define the term "drama queen". Does it mean an attention seeking fag, or a comedy averse female monarch?
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:43   #175
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Iron sights are the basics. Why does the U.S. Naval Academy first teach midshipmen how to sail on sailboats, when the Navy doesn't use sailboats anymore?

Teaching the basics first. People who know how to operate a sailboat and a powered vessel know a lot more about how to operate a powered vessel than one who only knows how to operate a powered vessel.
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