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Old 10-26-2012, 14:01   #1
Geko45
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jesus did not abolish the old covenant (mosaic law)

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Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-19
So, all the ugliness of old testament mosaic law is still in full effect for all you christians out there.
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:31   #2
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
So, all the ugliness of old testament mosaic law is still in full effect for all you christians out there.
It pays to be flexible on that stuff - had the christians not changed the rules, they could never have spread through Europe and become such a dominant religion. They had to make it more appealing - like they say at the Vatican, "anything for a dollar."

I wonder who first came up with that "it is implied that Jesus changed the rules" thing, anyhow.
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:33   #3
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[Clinton Impersonation] Depends on what your definition of "accomplished" is. [/Clinton Impersonation]
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:35   #4
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I wonder who first came up with that "it is implied that Jesus changed the rules" thing, anyhow.
They'll be along any moment. We can ask them.
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Old 10-26-2012, 14:36   #5
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It pays to be flexible on that stuff - had the christians not changed the rules, they could never have spread through Europe and become such a dominant religion. They had to make it more appealing...
You have to admit, "you can now eat bacon and you don't have to get circumcised" is pretty good marketing.

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Old 10-26-2012, 14:45   #6
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You have to admit, "you can now eat bacon and you don't have to get circumcised" is pretty good marketing.

-ArtificialGrape
You just gotta make sure they don't actually read it themselves, but for their target audience that isn't to hard.
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Old 10-26-2012, 15:14   #7
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So, all the ugliness of old testament mosaic law is still in full effect for all you christians out there.
Seems you and Brasso are on the same page.


Just sayin'



But you're both wrong. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant.

That's why Jesus said that He was establishing the New Covenant.
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Old 10-26-2012, 15:55   #8
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But you're both wrong. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant.

That's why Jesus said that He was establishing the New Covenant.
I just quoted what he said and that wasn't it. Or, are you saying the bible is flawed?
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Old 10-26-2012, 16:26   #9
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I just quoted what he said and that wasn't it. Or, are you saying the bible is flawed?
Nope. Your interpretation, however, is.

You've got to read ALL of the statement (including the until ... part, which is why I mentioned that Christ fulfilled the OT) . And use a proper interpretation.
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:02   #10
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Jesus was speaking to his fellow Jews. He lived and died a Jew. The 613 commandments do not apply to the rest of the world, especially to Brasso. Christians are followers of Paul, not Jesus.

Someone recently posted a video of a rabbi addressing the subject. You all should watch it, you might learn something.
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:33   #11
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The Judaizers never give up. Atheist Judaizers. How ironic.

Try learning context, intent, etc. and of course comprehension.
Ignoring other passages that contradict your position doesn't help.
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:57   #12
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But you're both wrong. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant.

That's why Jesus said that He was establishing the New Covenant.
I think the question is: How do you know? What is your basis for that conclusion?
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:58   #13
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Originally Posted by RON in PA View Post
Jesus was speaking to his fellow Jews. He lived and died a Jew. The 613 commandments do not apply to the rest of the world, especially to Brasso. Christians are followers of Paul, not Jesus.

Someone recently posted a video of a rabbi addressing the subject. You all should watch it, you might learn something.
Wow thats rich to admit you follow Paul and not Jesus!
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Old 10-27-2012, 06:00   #14
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Nope. Your interpretation, however, is.

You've got to read ALL of the statement (including the until ... part, which is why I mentioned that Christ fulfilled the OT) . And use a proper interpretation.
Couldn't you have copied and pasted in the part that supports you, easier than you could have typed that?

What are you relying on?


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The Judaizers never give up. Atheist Judaizers. How ironic.

Try learning context, intent, etc. and of course comprehension.
Ignoring other passages that contradict your position doesn't help.
You threw out some words, but no explanation of how they apply and no bible quotes to back them up. Can you explain?
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:06   #15
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Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us a new covenant, the Bible is clear about this. He was the once and for all sacrifice for our sins. If we were under the old law we would have to still be sacrificing animals and such, and the Bible is clear that doing so was (and is) no longer acceptable before God, it's now only through His precious Son Yeshua. I can think of the old law as a guide of what to do and what not to do, but as a follower of Jesus, I'm not bound to the old law, but I'm rather in the new covenant that Jesus set up.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:01   #16
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Ron in PA is Jewish. His logic isn't unexpected, however wrong it may be.

Jews have a dilemma that they won't talk about. Being only 2/12 of Israel, and expecting all Israel to eventually inherit the Land, they have no clue how this will happen. They know that once divorced a person is not allowed to remarry. i.e. the Northern Kingdom cannot just come back into covenant. This is only allowed once one of the two parties dies. And being that Christianity is in a lot of way re-wrapped sun worship, that as he says, follows Paul and not Messiah, they don't see them as Israel. Can't blame them there.

If I was Jewish and some Christians came along and told me that MY Messiah abolished all the commandments that my God already said were forever, I'd tell them to go jump off a cliff too. Rightfully so.

Deu 13:1 “When there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he shall give you a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder shall come true, of which he has spoken to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other mighty ones – which you have not known – and serve them,’
Deu 13:3 do not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for יהוה your Elohim is trying you to know whether you love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart and with all your being.
Deu 13:4 “Walk after יהוה your Elohim and fear Him, and guard His commands and obey His voice, and serve Him and cling to Him.
Deu 13:5 “And that prophet or that dreamer of dreams is put to death, because he has spoken apostasy against יהוה your Elohim – who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim and redeemed you from the house of bondage – to make you stray from the way in which יהוה your Elohim commanded you to walk. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst.

And you wonder why they are critical and even hostile towards you? Christianity is wrong. Plain and simple. They twist Paul out of context and persecute God's people because of it. And the whole time they have a smug smile of false confidence on their faces.

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and clever in their own sight!


Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own estimation, that hardening in part has come over Yisra’ĕl, until the completeness of the gentiles has come in. Footnote: 1Gen. 48:19.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:17   #17
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Jesus did indeed abolish the old covenant and create a new covenant.


Hebrews 8:7 - 8:13

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:39   #18
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Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
New Covenant, same laws. However, He never did away with the Mosaic Covenant. As will all of His covenants, the newer ones simply add to the previous ones. If the laws of the Mosaic Covenant are gone, then so is the sacrifice of your savior.
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Old 10-27-2012, 21:39   #19
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The theists (at least most of them) are equivocating. No one has yet explained how jesus's plain language doesn't mean what it obviously means. He straight up said that every bit of the old law would be in effect until the heavens and the earth came to an end. They haven't.

Specifically, in the case of the prostitute, he said that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone." Ok, I get that part, but after everyone left it was just she and him. As the son of god, he was without sin. Why did he not stone her death? Either he violated the law or he was guilty of sin (i.e. he was just a man).
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:01   #20
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The theists (at least most of them) are equivocating. No one has yet explained how jesus's plain language doesn't mean what it obviously means. He straight up said that every bit of the old law would be in effect until the heavens and the earth came to an end. They haven't.

Specifically, in the case of the prostitute, he said that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone." Ok, I get that part, but after everyone left it was just she and him. As the son of god, he was without sin. Why did he not stone her death? Either he violated the law or he was guilty of sin (i.e. he was just a man).
The law reads that both the man and woman had to be present to be accused. In this case only the woman was. This is the reason no one could cast a stone. Also did you notice Jesus told her to sin no more, He admitted it was a sin ( breaking of the law) but the man was not present.
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