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Old 10-29-2012, 09:12   #21
Schabesbert
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
The theists (at least most of them) are equivocating. No one has yet explained how jesus's plain language doesn't mean what it obviously means. He straight up said that every bit of the old law would be in effect until the heavens and the earth came to an end. They haven't.
This was apocryphical language, and in that sense, they have, with the destruction of Jersulem and specifically the Temple.


The Temple is considered a microcosm in the truest sense, and its destruction represented the end of an age.

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Specifically, in the case of the prostitute, he said that "he who is without sin may cast the first stone." Ok, I get that part, but after everyone left it was just she and him. As the son of god, he was without sin. Why did he not stone her death? Either he violated the law or he was guilty of sin (i.e. he was just a man).
There weren't the requisite two or three witnesses against her anymore.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:25   #22
Glock36shooter
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If the laws of the Mosaic Covenant are gone, then so is the sacrifice of your savior.
Oooooo explain that please. I find that ideal fascinating.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:30   #23
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
This was apocryphical language, and in that sense, they have, with the destruction of Jersulem and specifically the Temple.


The Temple is considered a microcosm in the truest sense, and its destruction represented the end of an age.
I find that most of your apologetics depend greatly on the "The Bible says X but what it really means is Y." And then you claim the interpretation that you have chosen is the only correct one and that everyone else is wrong and simply doesn't understand it as completely as you.

I feel you twist the bible to mean whatever you want it to mean and back it up with an impressive pile of BS. In your world the bible cannot be held accountable for what it actually says because what it says is completely different from what it actually means. What box of cracker jacks did you get your secret decoder ring out of and where can I get mine?
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:35   #24
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[QUOTE=Geko45;19558768]So, all the ugliness of old testament mosaic law is still in full effect for all you christians out there.[/QUOTE

Mosaic Law is a moral guide for life. It does not give one salvation.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:41   #25
Glock36shooter
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[quote=scccdoc;19567307]
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
So, all the ugliness of old testament mosaic law is still in full effect for all you christians out there.[/QUOTE

Mosaic Law is a moral guide for life. It does not give one salvation.
Yes but you pick and choose what parts of it you want to follow and which you don't. You cherry pick.
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Old 10-29-2012, 14:44   #26
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I find that most of your apologetics depend greatly on the "The Bible says X but what it really means is Y."
[sarcasm]I have never said that "The Bible says X" nor have I ever said that what it "means is Y." In fact, "X" and "Y" are meaningless.
[/sarcasm]
Of course, I understand what you mean, but that is because we're using a common context for the meaning. Another culture, at another time, could simply conclude that you're not telling the truth, or that you're completely wrong. And THAT is what you're doing with the Bible.

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And then you claim the interpretation that you have chosen is the only correct one and that everyone else is wrong and simply doesn't understand it as completely as you.
No, we study the scriptures and make a determination based on the intended meaning of the human author.

Mark P. Shea: Reading the Bible Like a Grownup

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I feel you twist the bible to mean whatever you want it to mean and back it up with an impressive pile of BS.
In the real world, feelings don't really stack up well against actual facts.

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In your world the bible cannot be held accountable for what it actually says because what it says is completely different from what it actually means.
Actually, this is exactly upside down. What we try to do is derive the actual meaning as the author intended it.

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What box of cracker jacks did you get your secret decoder ring out of and where can I get mine?
I could point you to a huge pile of good books, but you would rather go off of your "feelings" I'm afraid.

Just as a LITERALISTIC reading of your first paragraph would lead to a misinterpretation of your INTENDED meaning, someone in another culture could (if they didn't WANT to get to the truth, since they couldn't handle the truth) mockingly dismiss your statement as a bunch of, to quote Biden, "malarky."

You could start off with the Catechism:
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
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Last edited by Schabesbert; 10-29-2012 at 14:45..
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Old 10-29-2012, 15:04   #27
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[sarcasm]I have never said that "The Bible says X" nor have I ever said that what it "means is Y." In fact, "X" and "Y" are meaningless.
[/sarcasm]
Of course, I understand what you mean, but that is because we're using a common context for the meaning. Another culture, at another time, could simply conclude that you're not telling the truth, or that you're completely wrong. And THAT is what you're doing with the Bible.
I disagree. I know... since I do not view it your way I am wrong. Nevertheless the Bible has been translated and retranslated to the satisfaction of the world. It's only when it's blatant contradictions, barbaric morality, and archaic mythologies cannot be reconciled with modern day knowledge and wisdom that the so called biblical scholars must begin twisting the meanings of things and reinventing the intentions of the authors. The bible says the world and heavens. If it meant temple... it would say temple. If it meant Jerusalem it would have said so. You are stretching to have it mean what you want it to mean. Or at least the "Scholars" who's every word you hang on are stretching it.

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No, we study the scriptures and make a determination based on the intended meaning of the human author.

Mark P. Shea: Reading the Bible Like a Grownup
So long as the meaning agrees with your world view and God hates all the same people you do. Otherwise you'd pick another interpreter that twists it to your liking.


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facts
Of which you have none.


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Actually, this is exactly upside down. What we try to do is derive the actual meaning as the author intended it.
So long as it agrees with your world view.
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Old 10-29-2012, 15:18   #28
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I disagree. I know... since I do not view it your way I am wrong.
Oh, no ... you said so, and since your proclaimation is all that is needed, you MUST be right.

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Nevertheless the Bible has been translated and retranslated to the satisfaction of the world. It's only when it's blatant contradictions, barbaric morality, and archaic mythologies cannot be reconciled with modern day knowledge and wisdom that the so called biblical scholars must begin twisting the meanings of things and reinventing the intentions of the authors. The bible says the world and heavens. If it meant temple... it would say temple. If it meant Jerusalem it would have said so.
OK. Since you claimed I said that "the Bible says X" you are either dishonest, or assuming that your non-literalistic interpretation would be understood. If the former, then your claim above is simply a case of "special pleading."

So, which is it then: are you dishonest, or commiting a logical fallacy?


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Old 10-29-2012, 15:30   #29
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Oh, no ... you said so, and since your proclaimation is all that is needed, you MUST be right.
I agree


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Old 10-29-2012, 15:33   #30
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Mosaic Law is a moral guide for life. It does not give one salvation.
And it never did.

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Oooooo explain that please. I find that ideal fascinating.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Heb 9:22 And, according to the Torah, almost all is cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
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Old 10-29-2012, 16:42   #31
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Just about anything can be supported if you cherry pick and ignore some Bible scriptures that speak to the subject.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus did not destroy the Old covenant He just made it ineffective and obsolete.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Since the Old Covenant is flawed and ineffective why cling to it rather than embracing the New Covenant?
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

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Old 10-29-2012, 18:03   #32
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Since the Old Covenant is flawed and ineffective why cling to it rather than embracing the New Covenant?
Why do you keep posting non-contextual posts?

No one is clinging to the Mosaic Covenant. I'm stating exactly what the Bible says.

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה.
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”
Jer 31:35 Thus said יהוה, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the laws of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, and its waves roar – יהוה of hosts is His Name:
Jer 31:36 “If these laws vanish from before Me,” declares יהוה, “then the seed of Yisra’ĕl shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”


Plain and simple once again. New Covenant. Same Torah. Just like Messiah said Himself in Mathew 5:17-21.

btw, the fullness of this has NOT happened yet. We are in a betrothal period. It doesn't happen in full until His return at Yom Teruah. One of those unfulfilled Feast Days you don't keep.
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Last edited by Brasso; 10-29-2012 at 18:17..
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Old 10-29-2012, 18:29   #33
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You may want to keep reading through the book of Matthew. Chapter 22: 37-40

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If Jesus wasn't legalistic when it came to this, why should you be?
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:41   #34
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Because I actually understand what you just posted.

To keep the Torah fulfills those two commandments. To not keep it breaks one or more of those two commandments.

And just when did it become "legalistic" to obey God's Word? And if obeying Him makes you a legalist, wouldn't not obeying Him make you an illegalist?

Might I suggest that when the creator of the heavens and the earth tells us that we should or shouldn't do something, it would be a rather good idea to listen to Him.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 10-30-2012, 06:43   #35
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You may want to keep reading through the book of Matthew. Chapter 22: 37-40

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

If Jesus wasn't legalistic when it came to this, why should you be?
Actually Jesus was being legalistic when He stated this, He was summerizing Gods commandments.
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:26   #36
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I agree


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You forgot to address the question regarding whether you are dishonest or committing a logical fallacy.

I think the evidence is pointing to: both.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:15   #37
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You... are... logical...

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Old 10-30-2012, 09:34   #38
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You guys can't even agree what the book says because you've all chosen different interpretations hashed out by YOUR chosen "Scholars". This is the problem with the bible. You really can twist it any way you like. And sometimes you have to in order to keep it from collapsing in on itself due to blatant contradictions and down right errors and misinformation. Mix that with a morality that you'd be arrested for conducting yourself by and you have a religious text that is best left in the sands of the ancient desert it was manufactured in.

We aren't animals like these "Holy" men were. We can't stone a woman to death because she has sex with whomever she wants. We're simply more civilized than the animals that wrote the bible. We know better than the ideal that homosexuals choose to be homosexual. It's simply as natural as a man being attracted to a woman. We know burning bushes and snakes don't freaking talk. These are fairy tales. Why did the Jews invent a messiah to come and undo the law? Because even they knew the old ways were barbaric. Towards the beginning of the common era the Jews had a bit of a change of heart. They were leaving their ways of sacrifice and law behind. They began surrounding their philosophy around caring for your neighbor and doing right by your fellow man. That this was the way to honor God. Especially after losing their temple for good. With no way to connect with god via a holy place... they began to believe that it was through kindness and charity that one connects with God. This is the idealism that was floating about during the time of Christ. It's no surprise that's what he preached. And if he is most of what history makes of him... he probably was their greatest preacher or messenger. However he probably was a little insane since he thought he was the son of God and had magical powers. But perhaps that's just legend and myth. Jesus would have been a far more impressive man had he not thought himself God in the flesh. That's just the mind of a mad man.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:56   #39
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Why did the Jews invent a messiah to come and undo the law?
Seriously?

They invented no such thing. It's precisely this line of thinking that prevents them from accepting "Jesus" as the Messiah.

And your view of the Torah is as skewed as a typicla Christians is.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:58   #40
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Because I actually understand what you just posted.

To keep the Torah fulfills those two commandments. To not keep it breaks one or more of those two commandments.

And just when did it become "legalistic" to obey God's Word? And if obeying Him makes you a legalist, wouldn't not obeying Him make you an illegalist?

Might I suggest that when the creator of the heavens and the earth tells us that we should or shouldn't do something, it would be a rather good idea to listen to Him.
There were over 600 "laws" at the time. Do you keep them all?
Do you strain all of your drinks?
And when was the last time you made a burnt offering or sacrificed a lamb?
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