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Old 10-26-2012, 18:52   #181
t4terrific
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themighty9mm View Post
De ja Vue.
Lol A friend of mine and I just had almost this exact same conversation at work today. Only he played mp15t, and I played mjkeat. I am not in the army but do undertand how serious a HD situation can be.

He had it all figured out. I told him something along the lines of. You have never ever been in that situation. Nor have I. You dont know what you dont know. Why just hope for the best. When you have every oportunity to be the best you could and increase your odds 10 fold. His basic response was very similar the MP15's. No matter the situation within his own house he won. He knows the layout and has an advantage and so on and so forth.

I'd go on about assume anything is possible and plan for the worst. He'd tell me abot some kid who shot a guy in the arm and the hobo ran away. I went on about statistically in combat you fall back to what you are best at, and how he was not good at much shooting wise (its the truth, I have seen this guy shoot).

Then he would come back with he was good enough to defend himself and how he could hit what he was aiming at. I would point out, it was usually within 7 yards and with a rifle and no stress even in the slightest. Add in stress/ fear and all the goes with it, and his odds of hitting even a human size target at close range were small. Then I would point out cops, and how they often miss even at close range, under real live fire. I also pointed out a few timed game of shooting tic tac toe another buddy of mine, and I did. Granted the targets were much smaller. But even with a recreational mindset and a tiny itty bitty bit of stress of time. Even at 7 yards my buddy often found himself not even close to paper. I do have a bit more shooting experience than him (it was a very unfair advantage as he has only been shooting a handfull of times ever. But like the first friend before the tic tac toe game. No matter the situation he was on top of it. After a few friendly games it was a real eye opener for him. and how even at very close range how far he could miss. Even with lack of experience, that guy is not the worst shot ever.
Then my friend (whom the conversation started with) would come back with some random guy who won a gun fight by a wing and a prayer.

It always came back down to why not take it more seriously? Listen to guys who have been there done that, got the T shirt and wrote the book. Chances are they know much much more than him or me. He's still at the point of he will always win the gunfight. Its unrealistic and to me sad.

I swear it was this exact same conversation. Thats funny. To me SD/HD is not a game, to him COD is telling the truth. And he was always the champ in his own mind. Any HD/SD should be taken 100% as serious as any other combat. It may only last a couple minuets or less. But during that time (if it ever happens) you are at war and it should be taken as such.

And in 2012 scenarios of the type, home invasion, mass shootings, burgerlary. Due to media, job loss, and just screwed up people in general. Chances are more and more likely than ever before. Its not a game, its you, and your families lives. Why assume you are the best, when you know damn well you arnt. And when opportunites to be better are so available, why not use that resource(s).

I think we are gonna go shooting this weekend and play some tic tac toe to give him a better understanding of reality. The only good point he made is it doesnt happen to him everyday. Fair enough and true.
And for most dedicating life to being a better shooter is not realistic. However, instead of just goofing off 100% of the time at the range. And in your own mind being the best thing since beer. Why not take the information others give, use it and apply it and seek out more. It doesnt mean you have to dedicate your life to it. But at least take it as serious as you would driving your car with a child inside. Use appropriate precautions, be smart, be safe, and be somewhat skilled. You had to get the basics before taking your DL test. Same with HD/SD. Life dedication? No but something to strive to be continuously better at.
What?
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:43   #182
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Iron sights? Is that what this thread is about?
Thats what my original intent was.
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Old 10-29-2012, 14:38   #183
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Thats what my original intent was.
i know, I think the pizzing contest somewhat dilluted it a bit....

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Old 10-29-2012, 15:08   #184
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RRA ar15a2 has standard sights. I have a completed mega machine lower that will have a DD or colt upper with fixed irons+aimpoint.

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Old 10-29-2012, 20:12   #185
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Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.
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Old 10-29-2012, 20:22   #186
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Originally Posted by t4terrific View Post
What?
No? Nothing? Dont worry, read again, its all in ther. Was just tryin to relate a very similar experience I had to an argument other posters were making. Thus the reason it started with de ja vue. Diddnt pick up on that?

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Old 10-30-2012, 02:49   #187
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Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.
I agree!
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Old 10-30-2012, 15:41   #188
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Sight alignment is one of the basic techniques of rifle marksmanship. If you haven't practiced it and haven't shot irons a good deal you don't have the skillset. Ask yourself this question...if you think its not that hard take an iron sighted gun deer hunting this year and prove it. I've killed stuff with irons out to 280 yards including deer. I've competed with irons out to 1,000. Show me a man who doesn't know his way around a set of iron sights on a rifle and I'll show you a man who cannot shoot worth a damn with ANY sight.

Its a fundamental skill set. You either have it and have proven you can use it or you don't. Its not any harder than that.
Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.

I, myself would love to walk into the Trophy Shop at Camp Perry and see my name on one of those. Until, I feel confident enough for that, I’ll keep practicing with Iron Sights and keep doing the rifle matches at my club.

I the past, I have hunted with Iron Sights and Red Dots. I can use either. I like Red Dots on a handgun and Iron Sights on the shotgun.
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Old 10-30-2012, 19:32   #189
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Most people lack the interest of learning Marksmanship with Iron Sights. They would rather just depend on a sight with an illuminated reticle. If that gets more people into the shooting sports, I could care a less.

I, myself would love to walk into the Trophy Shop at Camp Perry and see my name on one of those. Until, I feel confident enough for that, I’ll keep practicing with Iron Sights and keep doing the rifle matches at my club.

I the past, I have hunted with Iron Sights and Red Dots. I can use either. I like Red Dots on a handgun and Iron Sights on the shotgun.
We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:42   #190
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Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney View Post
We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.
Too me not having BUIS on an AR is like driving a car without a spare tire..just plain foolish IMHO.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:10   #191
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Old 10-31-2012, 13:43   #192
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We train a bunch of folks to shoot rifles, and some of their rifles do not even have iron sights. We still teach the fundamentals, to include a good cheek weld for 20 bench rounds to sight the rifle in, 20 prone rounds to learn that position, then 20 rounds in arm rest standing..... And those 60 first rounds need to be fired with a good cheek weld. 20 rounds each from kneeling and sitting follow, then we work on improvised field positions.... And the cheek weld is an element in every shot fired.

We want to include everyone in the enjoyment of the shooting sports and we know that hitting what they want to hit is what is going to keep them coming back.
I can understand the position you need to take.

For the past 3 years, I have been going up to Camp Perry for the EIC Rifle or Pistol Matches. The AMU and the NRA coaches have showed me so much and have helped me out with my shooting ability, that I am hooked on Competition Shooting. More rifle than pistol. I share this information with friends and coworkers all the time. I have people that tell me the advice was helpful to them. Then I tell them about the course. But most people don’t want to take the time for it.

My first year of the rifle matches I was a little intimidated at shooting 200 yards with Iron Sights. I scored in the 260’s out of a possible 400 points. I practiced what I learned until the next match. The second year I took the advanced course. I scored in the 320’s out of a possible 400 points. Sometimes, I wish I had these guys on speed dial for pointers.

So yes, I do understand if they aren’t hitten, then they are splitten. And you’ll never see them again.
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Old 10-31-2012, 14:17   #193
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We need to keep in miind what type of shooting we are doing.
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Old 10-31-2012, 14:28   #194
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The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable?
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Old 10-31-2012, 14:44   #195
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Too me not having BUIS on an AR is like driving a car without a spare tire..just plain foolish IMHO.
If I refuse to work with folks based upon foolishness, We would have no clients! By the same token, many of the things that I am habituated to doing are likely foolish some of the time.

We try our best to lead them to the tall, cool drink of water that is rifle mastery, yet we depend upon their heart, their hands, their will, and their faith to get them to raise that glass to their lips and refresh and replentish the skills of our people that are depended upon for our continued enjoyment of the Blessings of Liberty.
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Old 10-31-2012, 15:22   #196
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The base line needs to start somewhere doesn’t it? Shouldn’t the fundamentals be transferable?
The fundamentals are transferable, yet one cannot transfer what has not been developed. RDS allow rifle shooters to get easy hits up close without applying parts of the fundamentals. Once habituated to shooting without applying the fundamentals, it is very difficult to break bad habits. Success initially comes a bit more slowly when the well proven step by step methods are applied in conditioning a shooter to consistently applying the fundamentals, but a thourough mastery of basic marksmanship skills.

NRA Education and training loosely defines that as hitting a 6 inch target at 100 yards consistently with a centerfire rifle from all 5 basic rifle positions or a 1 1/4 inch target at 50 ft with a rimfire, any sights. BSA defines it as 1 1/8 inch groups at 50 ft from prone with metallic sights.

We routinely get Boy Scouts to their standard in 7-9 hours at camp and others to the NRA Basic Rifle Standard in the 14 hour basic rifle course.


Once we get the basic skills developed, we can taylor a program geared toward the shooters objectives, steer them toward a self directed course in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program, or help them find a club with matches geared toward their interests.
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Old 10-31-2012, 15:57   #197
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The fundamentals are transferable, yet one cannot transfer what has not been developed. RDS allow rifle shooters to get easy hits up close without applying parts of the fundamentals. Once habituated to shooting without applying the fundamentals, it is very difficult to break bad habits. Success initially comes a bit more slowly when the well proven step by step methods are applied in conditioning a shooter to consistently applying the fundamentals, but a thourough mastery of basic marksmanship skills.

NRA Education and training loosely defines that as hitting a 6 inch target at 100 yards consistently with a centerfire rifle from all 5 basic rifle positions or a 1 1/4 inch target at 50 ft with a rimfire, any sights. BSA defines it as 1 1/8 inch groups at 50 ft from prone with metallic sights.

We routinely get Boy Scouts to their standard in 7-9 hours at camp and others to the NRA Basic Rifle Standard in the 14 hour basic rifle course.


Once we get the basic skills developed, we can taylor a program geared toward the shooters objectives, steer them toward a self directed course in the NRA/Winchester Marksmanship Qualification Program, or help them find a club with matches geared toward their interests.
From the sound of it, it seems you guys do a great job with new shooters.

I have seen some people on the firing line at the Club I belong too with some bad habits. Sometimes I wonder where they learned how to shoot. I have tried to give them advise, but most of them don't want to hear it. Some do though.

A couple of weeks ago, the guy next to me was shooting his AR. He was shooting all over the place. I noticed he had a different cheek weld everytime. I told him maybe he needs to try putting his nose to the charging handle a few times and see what happens. He did much better and thanked me. He was an older guy with his first AR.
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Old 10-31-2012, 17:14   #198
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From the sound of it, it seems you guys do a great job with new shooters.

I have seen some people on the firing line at the Club I belong too with some bad habits. Sometimes I wonder where they learned how to shoot. I have tried to give them advise, but most of them don't want to hear it. Some do though.

A couple of weeks ago, the guy next to me was shooting his AR. He was shooting all over the place. I noticed he had a different cheek weld everytime. I told him maybe he needs to try putting his nose to the charging handle a few times and see what happens. He did much better and thanked me. He was an older guy with his first AR.
Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.
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Old 10-31-2012, 18:42   #199
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Many have no formal instruction, nor have they even read up on the matter. Just winging it because you think you know what you are doing, or learning from your buddy, may or may not be a good thing.

Something as basic and inexpensive as an Appleseed weekend would serve a lot of shooters well.
Appleseed events are awesome and if one is near you it should not be missed! New shooters will be grounded in the fundamentals and experienced shooters can have a good time getting quality practice and enjoying the camaraderie of like minded folks. 4H has a good program in many areas and BSA offers solid training.
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Old 10-31-2012, 18:44   #200
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Appleseed events are awesome and if one is near you it should not be missed! New shooters will be grounded in the fundamentals and experienced shooters can have a good time getting quality practice and enjoying the camaraderie of like minded folks. 4H has a good program in many areas and BSA offers solid training.
I started instructing with Appleseed this year, no need to sell me on it.
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