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Old 11-05-2012, 19:52   #221
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At the time Israel was not a sovereign nation. Some of the Laws were not in effect. There was no Sanhedrin with the power to exact capital punishment. There were no witnesses. What He did was disperse a mob that was acting outside of the commandments. It's a poor example of Him breaking the Torah. Any example would be poor since He never did.
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:43   #222
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I disagree. The unified identity of Americans is that we are Americans. America is based on the principle of the a nation containing a vast variety of of peoples, beliefs, family structures, religions, races, and ideals. It is the coexistence of such drastically different individuals that is America. That is our common identity.


Again, I disagree. Liberty and Justice for all... not just those that agree with you. America's ideal is freedom for all. And right now... that's simply not the case.



And you're entitled to your belief... but when you start trying to legislate it... with the ideal that those who do not share your view of what is good and pure in the eyes of God... that is when your belief has stepped into my back yard. And I don't want it there.
I agree as I did say live and let live. Homosexuals are free to make the choice to live as they choose. That's part of our free will, and agreed liberty. The distinction is in marriage. Marriage as I mentioned is an institution of family, and simply put 2 men cant reproduce. Bottom line our bodiea are not designed for two men or women to reproduce. So you cleary you can see this is not an institution for the same sex. So no homosexuals should not marry.

On your next point, you may do as you please. It is no difference to me whether you believe or don't believe, that again is free will, your right, and not for me to judge.

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Old 11-05-2012, 20:53   #223
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It's a poor example of Him breaking the Torah. Any example would be poor since He never did.
Textbook example of confirmation bias.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:11   #224
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I agree as I did say live and let live. Homosexuals are free to make the choice to live as they choose. That's part of our free will, and agreed liberty. The distinction is in marriage. Marriage as I mentioned is an institution of family, and simply put 2 men cant reproduce. Bottom line our bodiea are not designed for two men or women to reproduce. So you cleary you can see this is not an institution for the same sex. So no homosexuals should not marry.
Using this logic, is it your position that couples who do not intend to, or simply cannot reproduce, should not be allowed to marry?
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:46   #225
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Using this logic, is it your position that couples who do not intend to, or simply cannot reproduce, should not be allowed to marry?
More importantly, there is no objective source to justify his position that marriage is an institution of family and as such that makes it a matter of subjective opinion and thusly irrelevant to the issue of legality.

PrecisionRifleman, it seems like you are already half the way there, but unless you can identify a direct victim to an instance of homosexual marriage then I don't see how you can justify your position.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:52   #226
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Using this logic, is it your position that couples who do not intend to, or simply cannot reproduce, should not be allowed to marry?
I figured this would be asked. My point is to outline the rational for why it is not natural. Plain and simple it's not no matter how you want to look at it. You can say people are born that way or use any other reason for it, but the fact is that homosexuals are the minority. If they were not then we would have an ever decreasing population. God as the creator did not intend for man and man or woman and woman to marry. If you don't agree with that by all means that's your choice, and you should have the right to follow that decision. That's free will, and the freedoms we enjoy as Americans.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:58   #227
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I figured this would be asked. My point is to outline the rational for why it is not natural. Plain and simple it's not no matter how you want to look at it. You can say people are born that way or use any other reason for it, but the fact is that homosexuals are the minority. If they were not then we would have an ever decreasing population. God as the creator did not intend for man and man or woman and woman to marry. If you don't agree with that by all means that's your choice, and you should have the right to follow that decision. That's free will, and the freedoms we enjoy as Americans.
I'm not following your line of reasoning at all. Are you now contending that being minority makes it unnatural?
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:08   #228
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I'm not following your line of reasoning at all. Are you now contending that being minority makes it unnatural?
I think I spelled it out pretty clearly. Read what I said in the context of what was written. I believe you understood what was said, but you don't agree with it. That's perfectly suitable, and we can disagree without getting into nit picking a single sentence out of a paragraph and turning the statement into something else.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:11   #229
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You can say people are born that way or use any other reason for it, but the fact is that homosexuals are the minority.
So the majority can marry who they chose, but the minority cannot?

In what other situations would you have the majority deny a right to the minority?

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Old 11-05-2012, 22:16   #230
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So the majority can marry who they chose, but the minority cannot?

In what other situations would you have the majority deny a right to the minority?

-ArtificialGrape
It has nothing to do with minority/majority, but has everything to do with what was said within the context of the paragraph. Again, if homosexuals were the majority we would face an ever decreasing population. God did not create man and man or woman and woman to have children. It simply goes against science, nature, and our survival. What's not to understand?
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:21   #231
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I think I spelled it out pretty clearly. Read what I said in the context of what was written. I believe you understood what was said, but you don't agree with it. That's perfectly suitable, and we can disagree without getting into nit picking a single sentence out of a paragraph and turning the statement into something else.
You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else here, but it's just subjective opinion without external objective justification and as such should not be a factor when considering legality in an environment intended to promote individual liberty. The only relevant factor in such a system when considering whether a behavior should be prohibited is if there is a direct and unavoidable victim to such behavior. There is not in the case of homosexual marriage. I'm sure some will try to generalize here and attempt to characterize homosexual marriage as a toxic family environment, but this is also unsupportable in an objective fashion.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:31   #232
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
I think I spelled it out pretty clearly. Read what I said in the context of what was written. I believe you understood what was said, but you don't agree with it. That's perfectly suitable, and we can disagree without getting into nit picking a single sentence out of a paragraph and turning the statement into something else.
Think what you like, I do not follow your line of reasoning.

Paranoid much?
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:35   #233
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It has nothing to do with minority/majority, but has everything to do with what was said within the context of the paragraph. Again, if homosexuals were the majority we would face an ever decreasing population. God did not create man and man or woman and woman to have children. It simply goes against science, nature, and our survival. What's not to understand?
So explain how allowing them to be legally married would result in a decrease of the population. Starting with 7 billion people, how would that happen? You do realize that gay people still have working reproductive systems and they do reproduce often when they so desire and that their offspring have the same chance of turning out straight or gay as the offspring of hetero couples right?
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:35   #234
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You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else here, but it's just subjective opinion without external objective justification and as such should not be a factor when considering legality in an environment intended to promote individual liberty. The only relevant factor in such a system when considering the whether a behavior should be prohibited is if there is a direct and unavoidable victim to such behavior. There is not in the case of homosexual marriage. I'm sure some will try to generalize here and attempt to characterize homosexual marriage as a toxic family environment, but this is also unsupportable in an objective fashion.
Cool we can agree to disagree.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:36   #235
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I think I spelled it out pretty clearly.
No, you didn't. There are now 3 of us asking for clarification.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:38   #236
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Originally Posted by PrecisionRifleman View Post
It has nothing to do with minority/majority, but has everything to do with what was said within the context of the paragraph. Again, if homosexuals were the majority we would face an ever decreasing population. God did not create man and man or woman and woman to have children. It simply goes against science, nature, and our survival. What's not to understand?
Homosexual behavior is found in nature and is very well documented in mammals and birds. That would be a pretty standard definition of natural, unless you would argue that all those animals had mommy issues. As already pointed out, there is no risk of the population going extinct due to homosexuality. Even at 100% homosexual, I'm pretty sure that gay men and gay women could figure out how to keep the species going.

Face it, heterosexuals haven't done a great job with marriage to be determining what others should be able to do.

I imagine you cherish the person that you married. Fortunately for you that person was of the opposite sex. You want to deny that chance at happiness to others. Not everybody does.

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Old 11-05-2012, 22:40   #237
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Cool we can agree to disagree.
Sure. You want to limit the freedom of others based on your bible and I disagree. I imagine you would feel the same if I had an old book, possibly written by George Orwell, that I wanted the government to use to limit your freedom.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:42   #238
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Cool we can agree to disagree.
Only if you agree that your opinion is not a factor when considering whether homosexual marriage should be legalized.
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Old 11-05-2012, 23:14   #239
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Sure. You want to limit the freedom of others based on your bible and I disagree. I imagine you would feel the same if I had an old book, possibly written by George Orwell, that I wanted the government to use to limit your freedom.
I did not make reference to the Bible in my position, but regardless of my beliefs your argument would be the same. If we remove the aspect of a creator my argument would not change either. Adam and Steve don't procreate. You don't have to like it, but that's how it is.
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Old 11-05-2012, 23:16   #240
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Only if you agree that your opinion is not a factor when considering whether homosexual marriage should be legalized.
We live in a 'free society' that is based on votes. You cast yours as you see fit, and I'll cast mine.
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