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Old 11-07-2012, 19:57   #41
canis latrans
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For one, DOMA. Bob Barr....(R) Don Nickles (R)



1996 Republican Party platform endorsed DOMA.

Bush proposed a constitutional amendment.

Yes, Clinton signed it...but he has backed down and Obama flat out wont enforce it.

There are simply so many examples. The other side of that is, it doesnt matter if it is real or imagined. Are you really going to say the Republicans are NOT the party agains gays?

They are, even if only a little. It doesnt matter how many Republicans arent or how little it is....they are and lose votes (and look damned stupid) because of it.
I'd have to do a little research to be certain, but I'd BET that quite a few Dems voted for DOMA as well. You say reality doesn't matter. how do you fight that kind of insanity?

same thing with the dems spending hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising vilifying Romney. By almost any measure, he's a decent, caring, brilliant man. but the reality doesn't matter (I'm agreeing with you)

I guess you could argue immigration laws in the same vein as your DOMA example....Congress passed those laws decades ago (again, probably a Democrat-controlled body...remember, they had near complete control for DECADES before Newt's "take-over"). But because Republicans want to enforce the laws, they are the bad guys. why not fling open the border and enjoy the benefits of all those votes?

and we could probably garner a lot of the prison population vote by letting them out, too. don't laugh...Dems want to restore their voting rights. evil republicans are generally against that (those repressive bassturds)

Last edited by canis latrans; 11-07-2012 at 20:10..
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:08   #42
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I believe you are right, Rabbi, when you say that most folks are center-right. However ,they are center right in behavior.

Regarding DOMA, I believe that most polls show overwhelming support for it?

Sure, people vote 'issues'. But it's their emotions talking. That's why the more experienced the person(older) the more likely he is going to vote Republican. Obama catered to emotions with lies and half truths. emotions are very important to his constituency.

This President has done nothing yet he got re-elected. Emotions at work.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:11   #43
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I believe you are right, Rabbi, when you say that most folks are center-right. However ,they are center right in behavior.

Regarding DOMA, I believe that most polls show overwhelming support for it?

Sure, people vote 'issues'. But it's their emotions talking. That's why the more experienced the person(older) the more likely he is going to vote Republican. Obama catered to emotions with lies and half truths. emotions are very important to his constituency.

This President has done nothing yet he got re-elected. Emotions at work.
Of course he did lots of things to get re-elected...the proof is...he got re-elected.

You (a lot of people) have to stop thinking about this with their logic. It didnt work....did it?

Play the game as it is, not as you want it to be. That is the only way to win.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:12   #44
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So, those of us who vote on principal because we actually have morals and stand for something, should stop? Yeah, OK.

See, some people actually stand for something, and won't change their value system just to win a contest. Whether or not other people agree has no relationship as to what is right and what is wrong.

Right now across the world a Taliban member or a Saudi Morals Police officer is thinking the same thing.

Julius Sthreicher would admire your adherence to the hardline.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:15   #45
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I'd have to do a little research to be certain, but I'd BET that quite a few Dems voted for DOMA as well. You say reality doesn't matter. how do you fight that kind of insanity?

same thing with the dems spending hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising vilifying Romney. By almost any measure, he's a decent, caring, brilliant man. but the reality doesn't matter (I'm agreeing with you)

I guess you could argue immigration laws in the same vein as your DOMA example....Congress passed those laws decades ago (again, probably a Democrat-controlled body...remember, they had near complete control for DECADES before Newt's "take-over"). But because Republicans want to enforce the laws, they are the bad guys. why not fling open the border and enjoy the benefits of all those votes?

and we could probably garner a lot of the prison population vote by letting them out, too. don't laugh...Dems want to restore their voting rights. evil republicans are generally against that (those repressive bassturds)
Listen, it doesnt matter (to a point of course)what it right or wrong if you want to win...and lets be honest, with a lot of this we are talking about a subjective right or wrong....a point lost on alot of people....is it actually wrong to open the borders? No matter what side of that we are on, it is subjective. Let that sink in.

So there is the question. Do we go for the win or do we keep making point....that we continue to be able to do nothing about?

See, the Dems pander to as many people as they can to get elected. Then, they do their dem things AFTER they are elected, even if it screws the people they pandered to.

The Republicans, they tend to cut people out before election day. Yeah, you do get a little more of "what you see is what you get." but that doesnt tend to work as well.

Adapt or die.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:18   #46
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It is an old cliche but people really need to understand...

People wont often remember what you said but they will remember how you made them feel.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:20   #47
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Play the game as it is, not as you want it to be. That is the only way to win.
how often do we listen when the dems say "oh, you better not be mean to us during the campaign....the moderates don't like it when you're mean"?

then they turn around and use that very tactic against us, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of advertising.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:25   #48
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how often do we listen when the dems say "oh, you better not be mean to us during the campaign....the moderates don't like it when you're mean"?

then they turn around and use that very tactic against us, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of advertising.
Do you honestly expect a contest such as this to be easy?

No matter what choices you are or want to make, there are forces opposed to that.

Good luck.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:25   #49
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Listen, it doesnt matter (....is it actually wrong to open the borders? No matter what side of that we are on, it is subjective. Let that sink in.

Adapt or die.
it IS the law, no?

is it actually wrong to rob a bank?
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:28   #50
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Do you honestly expect a contest such as this to be easy?

No matter what choices you are or want to make, there are forces opposed to that.
we are all too often victims of our own principles, perhaps in more ways than one

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Old 11-07-2012, 20:30   #51
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it IS the law, no?

is it actually wrong to rob a bank?
You are making non sequitur leaps. Dont do that if you actually want to understand this issue.

Lots of things are the law that a lot of people dont want to be the law. They are, no matter which side of it you may be on, subjective. Robbing banks is not one of those things nor is it a campaign issue anywhere.

But things like drugs, immigration, gay marriage and the like are.

Most everyone agrees it is wrong to rob a bank. Less than half of people think it is wrong to smoke a joint in Colorado. Again, no matter how you feel about it, it makes sense that most people would agree on one and a lot of people would not agree on the other.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:31   #52
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During the 1950's, the Republican party thought they had to become more Democrat like, due to reeling under FDR and then Harry Truman. Demo Lite in other words.
Given enough time and enough rope however, the Democrats self imploded in the 1960's. After the Great Society which was another boondoggle give away program, they stumbled into Vietnam and escalated that War. They lost the White house twice after that fiasco, and other then the doofus Jimmy Carter went on to win again and again, and again until 1992.
The Republicans don't need to become like the democrats. No one can predict the future. The Democrats under Obama may well get very careless (as if they aren't right now) and make the same blunders again. Ushering Republicans back to prominence.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:36   #53
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we are all too often victims of our own principles, perhaps in more ways than one
Of course. Inflexible people do not often do very well. They may very well be right...but they are not often going to succeed. Prisons are filled with inflexible people. Teams often are not.

Every man has to make the choice what end of that he is going to fall on. I understand that but the results are going to be what they are.

You can do everything right and still fail but I would offer that many people who "stand on their principles" (not all but many) are actually hiding behind them more than standing on them. The results speak for themselves in most cases.

There is a reasonable test to see if a person is standing on them or behind them. It isnt perfect but I think most people will see the value in it....Do your principles dictate more of what you wont do or what you will do?

Of course almost all principles have both negative and positive aspects (what you can and cant do) but do you use the "Cans" to make a difference...or do you use the "Cants" to stand your ground on what you dont have to do. (or hold against others who do those things)
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:38   #54
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I am not going to quote each of you....but a lot of you keep saying (a lot of people everywhere, not just here) That the "dems are the party of (insert some group of people you dont like....)"

By saying that, you have missed the problem.

Yes, the dems do indeed have a base made up of the "gimme gimme" types....but that is not enough to elect them.

Once again, it is the moderate or the guy who is even on the right for a lot of things who sees the Republicans as the real enemy of freedom. (again, examples include women, gays, minorities and many others)

They have a point. Not all of them are "gimme gimme" folks and that creamy middle is what decides elections, not the extremes of each party that is easy to hate.

Folks, STOP just STOP deciding what the other guy is and hating on him for it. A lot of them have a point and is likely to vote YOUR way if you would stop endorsing a "you cant be that" or "we dont like that" political party.

If I was a gay it would be real hard to vote Republican, even if I agreed with much of what they stand for....but put yourself in their shoes for just a second. What good are the "good" policies of the Republican party if they Fng hate you and will use the law to oppress you?

The world is not as simple as sound bites on TV. Many of you would vote us into the stone age if it meant you get to keep your guns (yes you would) Well, open your mind for just a second and realize a lot of reasonable people feel the same way about a lot of other issues. Issues the Democrats are inclusive of while the Republicans exclude.
Every republican minority or woman politician is a target for the left. They aren't minority enough, or something. In the beginning, some on the left thought Obama wasn't black enough or down with the struggle.

Republicans have reached out are reaching out. Have you seen the diverse group Republicans? I'm willing to bet that there are more Republican Hispanics serving than Democrats.

They look for and want people "like me". I'm considered a minority. I despise the identity politics played by the Dems. I want no part.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:39   #55
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During the 1950's, the Republican party thought they had to become more Democrat like, due to reeling under FDR and then Harry Truman. Demo Lite in other words.
Given enough time and enough rope however, the Democrats self imploded in the 1960's. After the Great Society which was another boondoggle give away program, they stumbled into Vietnam and escalated that War. They lost the White house twice after that fiasco, and other then the doofus Jimmy Carter went on to win again and again, and again until 1992.
The Republicans don't need to become like the democrats. No one can predict the future. The Democrats under Obama may well get very careless (as if they aren't right now) and make the same blunders again. Ushering Republicans back to prominence.
The same demographic from those eras is not the same demographic of today.

Listen, Republicans dont need to be like Democrats. That would be the wrong thing. They need to include more people in what it is to be a Republican. The Republicans spend a lot of time excluding people because they have an element who seems to hate the personal chocies of others.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:40   #56
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You are making non sequitur leaps. Dont do that if you actually want to understand this issue.

Robbing banks is not one of those things nor is it a campaign issue anywhere.

But things like drugs, immigration, gay marriage and the like are.

fair enough, but does busting people for drugs make you a bad guy? why then the illogical leap in the electorate that enforcing a law is oppressive enough to validate voting for the MARXIST???
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:41   #57
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Every republican minority or woman politician is a target for the left. They aren't minority enough, or something. In the beginning, some on the left thought Obama wasn't black enough or down with the struggle.

Republicans have reached out are reaching out. Have you seen the diverse group Republicans? I'm willing to bet that there are more Hispanics serving than the Democrats.

They look for and want people "like me". I'm considered a minority. I despise the identity politics played by the Dems. I want no part.
No, they are not reaching out at all. They are showing off a handful of "different" people who tow the Republican line.

It is damned transparent and the proof is in the results.

When you start hearing rappers rapping about becoming CEOs and Hippies singing about smoking out with republicans....THEN you will be on to something. Point being, when the Republicans become "cool."
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:43   #58
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The Republicans spend a lot of time excluding people because they have an element who seems to hate the personal chocies of others.
I could make that exact same argument (different topics) against the dems.

an example? I'm a fox trapper. quite a few dems would like nothing better than to take this hobby away from me.

I could go on and on...
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:45   #59
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fair enough, but does busting people for drugs make you a bad guy? why then the illogical leap in the electorate that enforcing a law is oppressive enough to validate voting for the MARXIST???
I have answered that many times.

Imagine being gay and wanting all the things you (canis latrans) wants in life.

Now you have to vote. You agree with the Right, you really do, but they hate you and will use the power of the government against you (this doenst have to be real, it can simply be a fear...and it is a fair fear to have)

Who are you going to vote for?

Obama is the President. There is your answer.
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Old 11-07-2012, 20:47   #60
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I could make that exact same argument (different topics) against the dems.

an example? I'm a fox trapper. quite a few dems would like nothing better than to take this hobby away from me.

I could go on and on...
Yes, you could make that arguement...but again, not a fair leap.

Of course the Democrats exclude....but not as much.
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