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Old 11-08-2012, 12:54   #21
Spartacus100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend

Where would you put a Windham? I would put it equal to PSA or S&W...
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:57   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Tons of threads about this here and on other forums, like M4carbine.net

I would not get:
DPSM
Olympic
Bushmaster
Double Star
Anything I haven't heard of

I would get:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company Manufacturing
Noveske
LMT
LaRue
-
Spikes
Palmetto State Armory
Smith and Wesson

All depending on what I wanted and what I wanted to spend


+3
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Old 11-08-2012, 13:07   #23
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Originally Posted by Spartacus100 View Post
Where would you put a Windham? I would put it equal to PSA or S&W...
If I were to put Windham in that post they would go at the bottom, under S&W, or between PSA and S&W.

I tried to limit my post to listing/ranking brands that probably wouldn't get much disagreement. That's why I didn't list Del-Ton under brands I would not own or Windham under brands I would own, for example. And it's why I didn't list Sig, and some others.
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Old 11-08-2012, 13:21   #24
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Cool. Good reply to my question.
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Old 11-08-2012, 13:32   #25
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Well gee I guess I don't fit the mold. My first AR civilian wise was a Colt Match HBAR 20" A2. Good rifle, heavy, accurate . Number 2 was a 16" Carbine A2 DPMS HBAR upper on a AT lower. Lighter then , Colt accurate, 100 % fiunction ,Zero problems. Shot it more then the Colt, wife liked it, so the Colt went down the road. Number 3 PSA StrikeFire Carbine M4ery complete rifle . Totally happy with it, Light, accurate totally 100% reliable. Wife trying to make it hers-not happening. Number 4 CMMG 300 Blk Upper on Spikes Lower I built. I love .30 Caliber, accurate , more punch for hunting, more punch for HD/SD, did I say I love .30 caliber. Bottom line your money buy what you want, 99 % chance you'll be happy and it will do exactly what you want it to do and it will not matter who's name is on it! Just understand BRD is expensive ! Your wallet will be alot lighter.
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Old 11-08-2012, 13:33   #26
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Originally Posted by Spartacus100 View Post
Cool. Good reply to my question.
These AR threads are like minefields. I'm working on my counter-IED strategies.
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Old 11-08-2012, 14:33   #27
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I recommend buying a brand that is known to build their rifles to mil-spec. That way you know they at least built it to a certain quality. I went with Spike's Tactical 16" CHF enhanced upper w/NiBX BCG. I havent regretted it. Other makers that are known to build mil-spec are: Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, and a few others I cant think of right now.
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Old 11-08-2012, 14:39   #28
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People love to hate on DPMS, but mine runs great. Maybe I got lucky. Mind you, I did buy it before I knew anything about AR rifles, and I think the above advice has been good. Since I have heard mixed reviews of DPMS, Bushmaster, Armalite, Olympic, etc... given the choice to do over, I would probably pick a brand with a more "spotless" reputation.
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Old 11-08-2012, 14:52   #29
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Not disagreeing with you...
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Originally Posted by P99er View Post
Double Star hasn't made it into the "approved" group. Until so called experts start praising it, it will be beat up, regardless of whether people have problems with them or not.
I put more faith in a man that can take an "unapproved" brand AR15 and make it run over any "so called expert's" opinion any day. My reason is, ACTUAL experts like Pat Rogers document failures that occur in his training classes. He can recommend brands that have a less chance of failure based on first hand experience and a very large sample size. More "so called experts" that frequent gun forums usually have the opposite.

In all seriousness, who is more credible? One man who can PMCS a DPMS and keep it running, or some internet commando that posts BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC on every thread but if his BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC fails, tap/rack/bang is the pinnacle of his knowledge base?

But then again, I put the responsibility of proper operation of my gear on myself, not the manufacturer.
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Last edited by LA_357SIG; 11-08-2012 at 15:01.. Reason: Disclaimer up top.
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Old 11-08-2012, 14:55   #30
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Old 11-08-2012, 22:16   #31
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An AR is an AR - learn about them and you can make any one work as well as the next. They are like 1911's that way. High dollar brand names are for people who don't know enough to build their own.

Looking above, for example: Double Star makes some of the best parts I've ever had on an AR or a 1911 and I've built both with their parts - excellent quality, but the newbs don't know the name and don't know enough to see the differences, beyond brand names.
Not true. ARs are not created equaly. Build materials are the most noticable difference. Then you have QC and quality of assembly.

Work is a broad term. Work for one may not work for another.

Not knowing you can have quality w/o the "High Dollar" price tag shows, in your words, "newb" status.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.
Uninformed consumers drive the market. Compare the amount of people w/ ARs sitting in the safe who get out three times a year to the number of guys who are out once or twice a week. The number of ARs sold has no relation to quality. Uninformed consumers who rarely shoot then jump on forums and talk about how their DPMS is 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA_357SIG View Post
Not disagreeing with you...


I put more faith in a man that can take an "unapproved" brand AR15 and make it run over any "so called expert's" opinion any day. My reason is, ACTUAL experts like Pat Rogers document failures that occur in his training classes. He can recommend brands that have a less chance of failure based on first hand experience and a very large sample size. More "so called experts" that frequent gun forums usually have the opposite.

In all seriousness, who is more credible? One man who can PMCS a DPMS and keep it running, or some internet commando that posts BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC on every thread but if his BCM/Colt/LMT/DD/KAC fails, tap/rack/bang is the pinnacle of his knowledge base?

But then again, I put the responsibility of proper operation of my gear on myself, not the manufacturer.
What maker does Pat Rogers recommend and back?

How about an AR that just simply runs w/o the need for extra care. I'd rather spend my time shooting than maintaining.

Are you recommending people purchase non functional ARs so tap, rack, bang isn't the extent of their knowledge?
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Old 11-08-2012, 22:21   #32
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Work is a broad term. Work for one may not work for another.
It sure is. That guy I referenced earlier was very happy with his DPMS, and was sure it was the ammo (Federal Lake City XM855) that was faulty, not his rifle. Nevermind the fact that my rifle, and lots and lots of other quality rifles, shoot that ammo without the problems he has...or that I took the "bad" ammo from him and it worked in my rifle

But there isn't a sexy mil-spec for a hammer spring, so people think it is impossible one manufacturer's hammer springs are better made, better installed, or better suited for the job than another manufacturer's. But something has to account for his rifle's failures.

Not that he considers them to be his rifle's failures. They sure seem to be, for me, but it's easier for him to shift the blame elsewhere.
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Old 11-08-2012, 22:42   #33
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It's because they're fine for plinking now and then, which is what most consumers do. How many lower tier owners have even possessed thousands of rounds, let alone shot it, or even plan to short of SHTF?

Not a lot.

It depends on intended use. I have friends with certain rifles and they think they're grand. I have owned said brand rifles and put enough thru them for the lack of quality to shine through. Mostly unusual & accelerated wear and busted LPK parts. They shoot a few rounds per year and will never know the difference.
Exactly. Low end ARs work fine for folks who just like the idea of having a AR in their safe, but rarely shoot it, if ever. There is ALOT of these types of gun owners.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:36   #34
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Whatever happened to Cav Arms?
The original owners lost their FFL due to violations of the law. Mostly unrelated to the actual production of their products. The machinery and patents were bought by a new company, price went up ($180 stripped, $270 complete), and are now available again. NO feedback on new company quality, but the lowers are off the same machinery with the same processes. http://www.gwacsarmory.com/cav-15-mkii.html

That said, the polymer lowers made by other companies, I would toss into the No-Go pile. ARs based on those lowers are the only ones I would consider "Dogs." There are certainly some ARs that are less desireable for various functions/needs as one goes up and down the price-line.

The few ARs out there that take aberant mags and or have proprietary components, I would also not consider for a "first" or "must-work" AR. Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue. While I have seen a few people recomend Spike's, I have seen some of their products that underscore a basic lack of understanding of the AR platform, so they would not be on my list. I'd be wary of newer Bushmaster's and I would not consider an Olympic.

From what I have seen, I would have no issues with DPMS, Double-Star, DD, BCM, LMT, Stag or S&W. Personally, I think LaRue and Colt are WAY over-hyped and, while quality, there are equal or better ARs for less coin. If you want to spend a bit more, Noveske is near the top of the list and an excellent product.

I've owned Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, Firebird, JP, Noveske and others. Most of those are gone. IMO, you can get a better quality rifle with careful planning and cherry-picking parts that will serve your needs better, educate you on the operation, and cost less money, by building it yourself.

In 3Gun, we are seeing of lot of new shooters who have some sort of M4gery come out to play. As a result, we are seeing a LOT more failures: case head separations, failure to eject, extract, chamber, etc. and most of these are related to operator error in terms of maintenance. Guys takle a new rifle and go shoot 200 rounds and now you have failures. The crap some manufacturers coat their parts with gets almost like tar. But also, when you see "sponsored" shooters running factory guns that have multiple malfunctions over several matches, you start to say...that stuff don't work.

In any basic "must-work" AR, I'd avoid adjustable gas, Chromed BCGs, cheap sights, trigger jobs on mil-spec parts. Other than that, the BCG is probably the most important assembly to NOT skimp on.

Last point for the DPMS bashers...realize that a LOT of the small parts in other brands ARE DPMS parts. Also, the receivers and barrels come from a small number of factories and are branded for several "manufacturers."
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:21   #35
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Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:28   #36
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Quote:
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Thankfully, the Piston ARs shine is wearing off and DI systems are back in vogue.
If I were to want a piston driven gun, then I wouldn't be picking up an AR of some sort in the place. I've always thought that piston AR deal was silly. You take a gun that wasn't designed for a type of mechanism, then try to half-assed engineer a mechanism in to replace the original design.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:10   #37
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I have limited DPMS experience. Both negative. (I don't usually pay attention to what other people are shooting, but, well, you'll see why I knew what they had below)

First: Guy next to me at the range was shooting an AR15, as was I. Not long after he started he came over and asked me if I knew about them, or whatever. His DPMS had jammed so bad on a round of Remington/UMC FMJ that he just could not get the bolt open. I tried to help but it was damn stuck and I didn't want to beat on some other guy's gun. Range staff came over and pounded the crap out of the buttstock-onto the bench-and it eventually came loose.

Second: At an Appleseed a fellow instructor, whom I had shot with before, was shooting an AR15 as I was doing the same. We were both shooting Federal XM855. He 'warned me' about failures to fire with that ammo. Said he got them from time to time, and he had just had 2 FTF out of 5. He put the two in again and one fired, one did not. I took the one that had twice failed in his rifle...it worked perfectly in mine, same as every other round I have ever put through it *knock on wood*
Warp,

I'm not going to deny that ARs have malfunctions. What I am going to tell you is that I have seen EVERY malfunction you can find in ANY AR thread on the internet on an M16 Rifle Range in the US Army with Colt and FN rifles.

That malfunction you described above is probably a case rim over the top of the bolt jam and while rare--I've seen it happen in the military. Its a beotch to clear for sure. But it happens even with fully functional MILSPEC issued rifles...

Anecdotal observations like yours are interesting. But they prove nothing. Its like saying you were driving home today and saw a Honda Accord broken down on the side of the road and therefore concluding the Honda Accord is an unreliable piece of junk!
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:03   #38
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FWIW, DPMS sells more ARs in the US than any other maker by a very large margin. You will hear lots about them. But the guns I've seen ran fine. Price is not the only reason they sell bunch...if they were junk they wouldn't hold the market share they do.
The DMPS built rifles are GTG, if not made of the most durable materials available. The DPMS kit rifles built by guys who read about how cheap and easy they are to build tend to be an absolute crap shoot. I guess a lot of guys didn't want to buy $300 in tools to save $150 dollars on a rifle when they already had a set of vise grips, a hammer, and a friend who would help out for a six pack.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:09   #39
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Originally Posted by Chuck TX View Post
It's because they're fine for plinking now and then, which is what most consumers do. How many lower tier owners have even possessed thousands of rounds, let alone shot it, or even plan to short of SHTF?

Not a lot.

It depends on intended use. I have friends with certain rifles and they think they're grand. I have owned said brand rifles and put enough thru them for the lack of quality to shine through. Mostly unusual & accelerated wear and busted LPK parts. They shoot a few rounds per year and will never know the difference.
The most prevalent rifles in the hands of the DOE guards defending places like the Riverbend Nuclear Power Plant and The Strategic Petroleum Reserve are DPMS. Bushmaster has a lot of their rifles being used as well.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:16   #40
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Whats wrong with Chromed BCGs? I've got a Daniel Defense chrome BCG in my newest build and can't possibly see anything wrong with it.
There is nothing wrong with chrome a BCG, as long as you do not fall for the "self lubricating" nonsense. The friction coefficient is lower, but there are still advantages to running them wet.
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