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Old 11-09-2012, 18:58   #261
Matthew Courtney
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Upon further review, N/M. Not worth it.

I often wonder why I keep doing this but there was a time when I had an attitude a bit similar to the way you come across. *Not knowing, that you don't know. *This is not meant to be offensive, but my similar experiences that I lived through so I will continue.....

No doubt this is what worked for you. *This also works for many other self taught shooters. *Nothing wrong with being self taught as I never had formal instruction for many many years growing up. *When I was young I was very formidable in all shooting area's, hunting, competition didn't seem like anyone I encountered could out shoot me. *I was the top shooter out of a graduating class of 65 for a large major metro PD, but even my professional instruction at that time was flawed at that level as yes general LE is not always the most up to date. *Did I know it? *Nope. *

After 11 years of hard work on the streets, I got selected into my current unit, took top shooter in that class. *Thought pretty highly of myself. *Arrogant or even cocky might be an accurate description. *Thought I was hot ****, but I still didn't know, what I didn't know. *Even some 12 odd years ago, training was not at the level it is today. *

Only when I was able to travel and train under some of the best instructors in the business from, LE, Military and Civilian trainers and diving deep into the long range precision / sniping community side of things did I truly start to understand and really grasp the fact that I wasn't as good as I really could be and I had no clue. *I was taken back to zero as were others. *Learning the craft with iron sights in a correct and proper progression. *Everything you mention about not being precise and seeing your own errors with iron sights is completely flawed at the root of the training. *Not what your eye sees but the entire package. *This is the same belief held by many who first learn on a red dot or even a scoped rifle. *There is far too much to try and explain it here in writing. *It is also hard for people to grasp who have no frame of reference or experiences other than what they know or are comfortable with. *I know, I was there before.

Bottom line, even after having great success as a shooter I still didn't know, what I didn't know. *It took many humbling times, from some of the best in the world to get me to the point where my thinking is today. *Even though I have come to the point in my career where I lead the entire program I take pride in the fact that I now know, that I really don't know and I will never know everything. ***

Basically your beliefs are formulated from what has worked for you. *But in reality you never obtained correct and quality instruction on how to train with or how to use iron sights correctly. *Trust me when I say that it isn't only what you are seeing, but it is body position, mounting position, breath control, trigger control, follow through and every nuance that affects those things and what you should be actually looking for when on sights. *The entire fundamentals package wrapped as a whole. *Much of these things cannot be seen by the shooter themselves and are not easily self learned, re-mediated or fixed on the spot.

I will also add that self taught shooters can become very very proficient on their own, irons or red dots, hell I was. *But I guarantee that a very high quality instructor can take those shooters to places in their own skills that they have never thought possible of themselves. *I take veteran A+ guys. *Only the top 2% of their field. *They are highly experienced shooters, with years of experience and many who have slung lead in critical use roles. *They often think they know quite a bit. *Many often think that there is little left to learn. *I would guess that 80% didn't know, what they didn't know when they first showed up. *A few have even been very good friends of mine and accomplished shooters before entering the program and they still didn't know, what they didn't know. *So far with the scores of guys I have trained, they all get broken down to basic marksmanship with iron sights. *So far 100%, yep 100% have vastly improved their skills and much of that is attributed to mastering iron sights. *

The moral here, just because something has "worked" for someone, does not necessarily mean that it is the best way of doing things or that there isn't a better, more effective way of creating even better results. *For most recreational shooters their needs are far more forgiving then say a professional competition shooter or someone who uses a weapon as a part of their profession when lives are on the line and that is OK. *So yes, it has worked for you, but I guarantee you, if I trained you for 1 week, your beliefs on this topic would completely change and another method would work even better as far as marksmanship and shooting skill sets are concerned. *Not sure if I could fix any other issues you may have. ***
I thought that it was very much worth it. In fact, it is one of the best things that I have ever read on Glocktalk.

PM me if you want me to delete your post from my reply.
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Old 11-09-2012, 19:51   #262
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I thought that it was very much worth it. In fact, it is one of the best things that I have ever read on Glocktalk.

PM me if you want me to delete your post from my reply.


What Surf said +2


Back in 89 I took command of my first Cavalry Troop. I was shooting NRA Highpower matches at the time and was the only soldier in my entire Cavalry Regiment of 5,000 that was an active competitor.

We had a recurring problem of soldiers--particularly non combat MOS soldiers failing to qualify with their weapons. Now normally, basic Rifle Marksmanship was an NCO function. Not an officer function. But really--there were 5 decent NCO's in the whole unit who knew crap about rifle marksmanship. So the Squadron CO pegs me to fix the Squadron's Marksmanship program because he knew I had a passion for rifle competition.

In the past the total marksmanship program consisted of an annual qualification. Set up a rifle range, hand the troop a couple magazines of ammo, and go qualify. No practice, no sight ins...just go qualify. Is it any wonder 40% or more were failing?

Being an officer I dusted off the Training Manual on Basic Rifle Marksmanship--looked up some of the recommended pre-qualification training and practice ranges and sat down with some of the senior NCOs and Sergeant Majors in the Squadron. Holy crap! You'd have thought I was talking spanish to these guys. And being NCO's I was told 20 different reasons why what I suggested wouldn't work....
I was a rifle shooter and had been shooting competitively since I was 15 years old. In high School I placed 3d in the state smallbore championship. I had a State Service Rifle Championship and a NRA regional Service Rifle Championship trophey. I knew "a little" about the subject. But I also knew not to tread too hard on these NCO's egos. So I scraped together a small range training team of some E6 and E7 former Drill Sergeants who knew how to teach basic rifle marksmanship and were up for my program. Long story short...we went to the Squadron CO--briefed him on our training program and he implemented it for the entire squadron. I'm not kidding when I tell you the Squadron Command Sergeant Major told me I was wasting my time...and he told the SCO the same thing. The SCO overruled him. Our first time out the squdron's rifle qualification scores went to over 96% as a result of this two day long refresher course and training range time. It was a victory but of course you don't get to rub that kind of victory in your detractor's face as you need their help and support in other endeavors.

Like Surf above...I've literally trained hundreds of people to shoot rifles. What he said about the fundamentals is spot on. There are lots of excuses for not learning the right way to do things but there aren't a lot of good reasons.

I recently took a carbine class and was very surprised to learn so much more than I had ever learned before about shooting a carbine short range. But I will tell you that I didn't struggle to shoot well in that class because my fundamentals were sound. So I did pretty darn good and could concentrate on the finer points of what was being taught--verus trying to figure out my cheekweld or trigger control. People who didn't have that foundation had a more difficult time.

Iron Sights represent a fundamental skillset. There really is no excuse for not learning to use them. Not even eyesight.
I shot highpower for years with a fellow that wore coke bottle glasses--he was a High Master and placed in the top five at Camp Perry 10 years in a row... Eyesight can be corrected.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:24   #263
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What BB said +3 you cannot ignore the fact of mastering iron sights its a must just like learning how to walk.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:47   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Just my experience:

When I bought my M&P15T, it was (supposedly) very slightly used, and already had an Eotech mounted on it. When I first started taking it to the range (being a complete noob) I struggled to get either the Troy BUISs or the Eotech sighted in properly. This was before I understood POA/POI and trajectory. I really just couldn't get anything to work, and I'd guess that there's a real possibility that my AR had never even been shot before being sold by the orignial owner, much less zeroed.

Slowly I got the Eotech sighted in, and picked a 50 yard zero. With practice I have gotten to the point where 100 yard hits on a torso-sized metal plate are very, very easY while I'm moving side to side, and I can probably shoot a 2-3MOA group from a bench. Decent enough.

Well, I still hadn't been able to get the sights zeroed. So one night with a beer or three helping, I lined up the BUISs with the Eotech reticle center dot. Next time out to the range I took off the Eotech and just shot irons.

The irons are not as precise as the 1MOA dot, nor are they as easy to get onto target quicky.....but they work. I was able to shoot at 50 & 100 yards almost as accurately as with the Eotech. Still, that Eotech's 1MOA center dot is very, very precise, and helped me to learn proper trigger and breathing control early on. Since the reticle's center dot is so precise, it's obvious and easy to see the effects breathing and smooth trigger technique have on aiming and firing, much more so that with the BUISs. Additionally, while learning those techniques, I had only to focus on them, and not also trying to focus on sight-alignment/picture.

Since I had started with the Eotech first, and practiced good breathing and trigger techniques, and then used the Eotech to zero my BUISs, transitioning to the irons finally worked for me.

Because my Troy BUISs do not offer a manner in which the front and rear sights can be very precisely aligned, with no obvious alignment points for them, it was far easier to focus on and practice the basics of trigger and breathing with the Eotech first, and then switch to irons.

Learning happens much faster and easier when there is plenty of feed-back. And the Eotech's 1MOA reticle center dot gave me that. While learning proper breathing techniques, I could see the dot move around the target as I breathed. While practicing trigger technique, I could see the reticle move if I didn't smoothly press the trigger. With the BUISs, there is nowhere near as much feed-back, because they are not as precise. But because I practiced those techniques with the Eotech, switching to the irons was very easy.

This manner in which I learned the basics of shooting my AR support my theory that learning to shoot (and teaching to shoot) advances much faster when the person learning is focused on trigger technique and breathing technique. A new shooter can focus on stance, sighting, and grip (talking pistol here too) all they want, but if they can't smoothly press the trigger, and can't press that trigger at the proper moment in the breathing cycle, they're never going to hit anything. I have taught 3 or 4 new pistol shooters this way, and all of them have gotten on target very quickly, and really enjoyed shooting. And since rifles are far more accurate and precise than pistols, those techniques mean even more when learning to shoot a rifle.

A good friend of mine caught onto my passion for shooting, and he bought a Mosin as his first real firearm. The iron sights on that rifle have a more obvious (to a noob) and precise sight alignment than those on an AR, which are nothing more than a post in a circle with no precise alignment points. On the Mosin, it's a post in a U, so the proper alignment is obvious, and more precise than on an AR IMO. When we brought it home, we were both immediately able to score very accurate hits with it, because the sights are so simple, precise, and easy to use.

Take it for what it is....which is what has worked for me.
As a kid every rifle I owned had iron sights. I didn't use optics until years later. Now I still don't totally trust them I always make sure I have BUIS...just old school I guess.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:15   #265
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Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot View Post
As a kid every rifle I owned had iron sights. I didn't use optics until years later. Now I still don't totally trust them I always make sure I have BUIS...just old school I guess.
It's not really "old skool" to still have irons/BUISs even when using an optic, or to not 100% trust an optic. Most folks here think the same way you do.

Still, I wish there were some better after-market sights for ARs that dispense with the rear sight being a circle. I find a rear "U" shaped sight (like standard GLOCK sights) to work much better for me.

Hell, maybe someone here knows of just such a product.
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:27   #266
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Probably not exactly what youre looking for, but something like this?

http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nI...s&sID=tactical

About halfway down the page....CSAT
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:45   #267
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Probably not exactly what youre looking for, but something like this?

http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nI...s&sID=tactical

About halfway down the page....CSAT
Sort of, but not quite.

I really like standard, old-skewl rifle sights like those on a Mosin. You know, you get the front sight blade nestled inside the "U" of the rear sight, and level them off, with equal space on either side of the blade, and that is a very precise alignment.

Whereas, with AR sights, including the Troy BUISs on mine, you're floating a post within a circle, which isn't that precise for me.
I've checked out Troy's site, and didn't see that they offered sights like that.
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:56   #268
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Sort of, but not quite.

I really like standard, old-skewl rifle sights like those on a Mosin. You know, you get the front sight blade nestled inside the "U" of the rear sight, and level them off, with equal space on either side of the blade, and that is a very precise alignment.

Whereas, with AR sights, including the Troy BUISs on mine, you're floating a post within a circle, which isn't that precise for me.
I've checked out Troy's site, and didn't see that they offered sights like that.
The Troy Dioptic might be closer, except the V-notch is the 300m aperture, not the close in one that it should be.

Edit: There's always true HK-type fixed diopter sights, too.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:00   #269
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Whereas, with AR sights, including the Troy BUISs on mine, you're floating a post within a circle,
When used correctly, you dont even see or consciously use the rear "peep" on aperture sights, your brain automatically centers the post, you just focus on the front sight. If your trying to consciously align them, you need to stop doing that.

If you really want to have a traditional leaf type "rifle/pistol" sight picture with the AR, and are running the BUIS on a flat top, with the rear sight in the link, I dont see why you coudnt just mount the rear sight more forward on the flat top, and use it like youre suggesting. Not something Id do, but if it works for you....
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:16   #270
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When used correctly, you dont even see or consciously use the rear "peep" on aperture sights, your brain automatically centers the post, you just focus on the front sight. If your trying to consciously align them, you need to stop doing that.

If you really want to have a traditional leaf type "rifle/pistol" sight picture with the AR, and are running the BUIS on a flat top, with the rear sight in the link, I dont see why you coudnt just mount the rear sight more forward on the flat top, and use it like youre suggesting. Not something Id do, but if it works for you....
Right, I totally understand that your vision focuses on the front sight, and the rear just blurs away. I'm sure that more practice with them is the key, and I'll probably find they work relatively well for me. And the sights on ARs are more of a "combat" type, than a precision type.

And, to be logical, any distance that I would actually have to use my AR for "serious" purposes would be so short (should I use the irons for some reason) that the sight pic really wouldn't matter.

Still, I love them old-style rifle sights....pure buttah.

Just out of interest (and boredom) I removed my Eotech and tried the Troy BUISs out in the dark.....basically completely useless.

Until I light up the Surefire, then they work just fine being back-lit.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:19   #271
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Sort of, but not quite.

I really like standard, old-skewl rifle sights like those on a Mosin. You know, you get the front sight blade nestled inside the "U" of the rear sight, and level them off, with equal space on either side of the blade, and that is a very precise alignment.

Whereas, with AR sights, including the Troy BUISs on mine, you're floating a post within a circle, which isn't that precise for me.
I've checked out Troy's site, and didn't see that they offered sights like that.
That is an aperture you install, not an entire sight, the notch part is only for CQB. EMA Tactical has a rear flip up with a simillar apature already installed http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/trac...-p-120140.html personally I perfer ghost ring sights on rifles, and on handguns I like dot and post.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:33   #272
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I always have BUIS to go with my optics. I make it a point to practice with irons some when I shoot.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:43   #273
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That is an aperture you install, not an entire sight, the notch part is only for CQB. EMA Tactical has a rear flip up with a simillar apature already installed http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/trac...-p-120140.html personally I perfer ghost ring sights on rifles, and on handgins I like dot and post.
I'll use the irons next range trip. See how much more I can progress with them. That sight you posted a link to looks great, might be just what I'm looking for.....thanks.

ETA:

Holy schmoly.....that sight is only $40!!! Gonna order it!!!!
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:26   #274
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I'll use the irons next range trip. See how much more I can progress with them. That sight you posted a link to looks great, might be just what I'm looking for.....thanks.

ETA:

Holy schmoly.....that sight is only $40!!! Gonna order it!!!!

Let me know how that rear sight works for you if you order it. Its looks ok for that price.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:57   #275
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I will add that some highly skilled marksman will often shoot tighter groups with irons then then say a red dot, even an EoTech with a 1 MOA dot. When you know what your looking for a skilled shooter will see more imperfections in their shooting platform via a dual plane sighting system like iron sights as opposed to a single plane dot set up. Often times irons provide the best accuracy or precision short of magnification for a skilled marksman.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:57   #276
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I agree Surf, most definitely.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:06   #277
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One of my M4's is iron sights only. Why? Because I like to shoot irons sometimes.

I have two EOTechs, one Aimpoint (clone), one 3X Bushnell, and all have their purposes. But having an iron sight rifle is fun. Also, ALL have BUIS, so it is important to practice with iron sights "just in case".
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:56   #278
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I will add that some highly skilled marksman will often shoot tighter groups with irons then then say a red dot, even an EoTech with a 1 MOA dot. When you know what your looking for a skilled shooter will see more imperfections in their shooting platform via a dual plane sighting system like iron sights as opposed to a single plane dot set up. Often times irons provide the best accuracy or precision short of magnification for a skilled marksman.
I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:26   #279
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I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.
I am considerately more precise with iron sights out to about 150 yards when I have a high contrast target for which my sights are regulated. Under those circumstances, my irons are more precise than even magnified scopes! It is when the targets are changed to something that my irons are not or cannot be finely regulated for that magnified optics begin to allow for more precision.

When time becomes more critical, a daytime illuminated 1.5-5 or 2-7 Leupold scope is lightning fast and quite accurate out to 300 yards.
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Old 11-12-2012, 15:17   #280
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I am considerately more precise with iron sights out to about 150 yards when I have a high contrast target for which my sights are regulated. .
i'd really like to know what type of high contrast target you are using?
i'm using nra SR-1 target centers at 100 yards and with my old eyes this target seems best for contrast at the 6 o'clock hold.

i've shot iron and i want to do more of it to be better accomplished.
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