[TangoFoxtrot]

I agree Surf, most definitely.

[QNman]

One of my M4's is iron sights only. Why? Because I like to shoot irons sometimes.

I have two EOTechs, one Aimpoint (clone), one 3X Bushnell, and all have their purposes. But having an iron sight rifle is fun. Also, ALL have BUIS, so it is important to practice with iron sights "just in case".

[Big Bird]

Originally Posted by surf

I will add that some highly skilled marksman will often shoot tighter groups with irons then then say a red dot, even an EoTech with a 1 MOA dot. When you know what your looking for a skilled shooter will see more imperfections in their shooting platform via a dual plane sighting system like iron sights as opposed to a single plane dot set up. Often times irons provide the best accuracy or precision short of magnification for a skilled marksman.

I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by Big Bird

I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.

I am considerately more precise with iron sights out to about 150 yards when I have a high contrast target for which my sights are regulated. Under those circumstances, my irons are more precise than even magnified scopes! It is when the targets are changed to something that my irons are not or cannot be finely regulated for that magnified optics begin to allow for more precision.

When time becomes more critical, a daytime illuminated 1.5-5 or 2-7 Leupold scope is lightning fast and quite accurate out to 300 yards.

[phil evans]

Originally Posted by Matthew Courtney

I am considerately more precise with iron sights out to about 150 yards when I have a high contrast target for which my sights are regulated. .

i'd really like to know what type of high contrast target you are using?
i'm using nra SR-1 target centers at 100 yards and with my old eyes this target seems best for contrast at the 6 o'clock hold.

i've shot iron and i want to do more of it to be better accomplished.

[Matthew Courtney]

Originally Posted by phil evans

i'd really like to know what type of high contrast target you are using?
i'm using nra SR-1 target centers at 100 yards and with my old eyes this target seems best for contrast at the 6 o'clock hold.

i've shot iron and i want to do more of it to be better accomplished.

Those are good targets, Phil. I use a globe front sight sized so that I can barely see a little bit of light all the way around the bull at the given distance. The slightest variation in my hold causes part of that light around the bull to vanish. Only when the sight picture is perfect do I see a halo of light all the way around.

The thing that makes magnified optics preferable for many is that they allow a shooter to more easily see a disturbance to the sight picture during the trigger press. This allows the same with zero parallax or other optical distortion. It can also be a great training aid. Once you have the bull centered in the globe, relax. If the sight picture shifts, you could have more bone support. Only when you can relax without shifting the sight picture do you have maximum bone support. This is where one can really fine tune his sling technique. Good shooting!

[TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by Big Bird

I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.

I use my red dot for 50 yrds and under and in low light shooting. Other than that I use my iron sights for distance and percision shots.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Does anyone have a problem with a magnified optic( lets say a 4x ACOG) trying to adjust to close range and how do you all over come it.

[K. Foster]

Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot

Does anyone have a problem with a magnified optic( lets say a 4x ACOG) trying to adjust to close range and how do you all over come it.

At close range, it’s important to be able to shoot with both eyes open. Look up “Bindon aiming concept”. I’ve used a couple ACOGs, 3 ½ and 4X. At 25 yards and out, they’re great. At room clearing distances, I found them less than optimal. I would prefer a RDS or low power variable that can be cranked down to 2X or below.

[Matthew Courtney]

The Bindon Aiming Concept works great with some practice. Sometimes 4x is a bit much magnification when one is first learning to master the technique and in some conditions an ACOG reticle is not bright enough for one whose eyes and brain are not conditioned to the concept. I use a Leupold 2-7 with Firedot illumination to teach BAC. I start with 2x and the firedot rather bright and gradually increase magnification and decrease brightness. Most shooters can get up to 4-5x magnification using the technique while picking up targets and shooting nearly as fast(.1.-.2 seconds slower for the first shot, same split times)as with an RDS.

[LA_357SIG]

Originally Posted by phil evans

i'd really like to know what type of high contrast target you are using?
i'm using nra SR-1 target centers at 100 yards and with my old eyes this target seems best for contrast at the 6 o'clock hold.

i've shot iron and i want to do more of it to be better accomplished.

Ever try IDPA torso silhouette targets at 100 yards?

[ak103k]

The Bindon Aiming Concept works great with some practice.

My first "red dots" were the old Armson OEG's, which is where I believe this concept began, or at least got its name. You had a red, fiber optic dot on a black field (you also had a tritium dot in low light) and if you didnt shoot both eyes open, you only saw a red dot on a black field. Once you got used to them, they worked great, even out at 100 yards or so.

These days, I still use the concept with my Aimpoints. I just close the front cover and carry on. This also works well when you are going back and forth from light to dark areas, as you can set the dot to a comfortable brightness level, and it will remain constant. You dont lose the dot in bright light, and you arent overwhelmed by it in low light.

Ever try IDPA torso silhouette targets at 100 yards?

Yup, and beyond too.

AK with red dot at 100...


AK with irons at 200....


Not just the "politically correct" targets either.....





Most people I know or talk to, base their skills on how they shoot off a bench, shooting at a contrasting bullseye type target, at their leisure. Put targets with no fixed aiming point, of varying sizes (ie, just head and shoulders, etc), at varying ranges, and shoot from field positions, and its amazing how people dont seem to be able to shoot near as well as the tell you they can. What you can do at any time, "on demand", is what your true skill levels are, and that goes for whatever sighting system youre given to do it with. If you cant pick it up and put it to work, reasonably well, then you need to work on a few things.

[Warp]

Those targets ^ are all politically correct

[phil evans]

Hello:
i've got 75 year old eyes, resolution not so good,
need targets with severe contrast.
i'll try anything, even the cardboard silhouette.

[scccdoc]

Originally Posted by ak103k

My first "red dots" were the old Armson OEG's, which is where I believe this concept began, or at least got its name. You had a red, fiber optic dot on a black field (you also had a tritium dot in low light) and if you didnt shoot both eyes open, you only saw a red dot on a black field. Once you got used to them, they worked great, even out at 100 yards or so.

These days, I still use the concept with my Aimpoints. I just close the front cover and carry on. This also works well when you are going back and forth from light to dark areas, as you can set the dot to a comfortable brightness level, and it will remain constant. You dont lose the dot in bright light, and you arent overwhelmed by it in low light.


Yup, and beyond too.

AK with red dot at 100...


AK with irons at 200....


Not just the "politically correct" targets either.....





Most people I know or talk to, base their skills on how they shoot off a bench, shooting at a contrasting bullseye type target, at their leisure. Put targets with no fixed aiming point, of varying sizes (ie, just head and shoulders, etc), at varying ranges, and shoot from field positions, and its amazing how people dont seem to be able to shoot near as well as the tell you they can. What you can do at any time, "on demand", is what your true skill levels are, and that goes for whatever sighting system youre given to do it with. If you cant pick it up and put it to work, reasonably well, then you need to work on a few things.

Did you have to use "Lock-Tite" on your Aimpoint?

[ak103k]

I put a small drop on each mounting screw, and on the Weaver type screws on the rings that use them. Then again, I use it on pretty much anything gun related when it comes to securing things.

[ak103k]

Those targets ^ are all politically correct

Hey, I agree, but many ranges wont allow them these days. Luckily, I dont have to shoot at one like that anymore.

[scccdoc]

Originally Posted by ak103k

I put a small drop on each mounting screw, and on the Weaver type screws on the rings that use them. Then again, I use it on pretty much anything gun related when it comes to securing things.

Yea, I bought a cheap BSA to see if I liked the "red dots". It doesn't hold zero, must constantly re-tighten. Probably will get the Aimpoint PRO.............. DOC

[TangoFoxtrot]

Good choice.

[Leigh]

Originally Posted by ak103k

My first "red dots" were the old Armson OEG's, which is where I believe this concept began, or at least got its name.

Weaver Qwik-Point from the 1960's is probaly the earliest 'red dot' type sighting system. I had one on an 870 deer gun.

Large, bulky, and not that great.

[ak103k]

Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember the Quick Points, although I never used one.

The Armsons worked very well in most instances. My biggest complaint was "twilight" or shadows, or anywhere you went from light to dark. The fiber optic worked best in bright light, but wasnt the greatest in low light. The tritium was small, and hard to see except in almost complete darkness, or at least your eyes needed to be adjusted to it somewhat to pick it up. On either side of that though, they worked great.

I had mine mounted on HK claw mounts and used them on G3's/HK91's and my MP5, up until the red dots started showing up. They were not bulky or cumbersome in the least, and smaller than the Aimpoint M2's.

Once I got my first Aimpoints, I cant say I ever really missed the OEG's. Even though the Aimpoints are battery dependent (which is really a non issue, especially these days), they make up for the OEG's deficiencies. I still use the "concept" on a pretty regular basis with the cover closed on my Aimpoints though.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Yep, never know when they batteries will crap out.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by K. Foster

At close range, it’s important to be able to shoot with both eyes open. Look up “Bindon aiming concept”. I’ve used a couple ACOGs, 3 ½ and 4X. At 25 yards and out, they’re great. At room clearing distances, I found them less than optimal. I would prefer a RDS or low power variable that can be cranked down to 2X or below.

Same here I used the ACOG in Iraq. I would have rathered an optic as durable that could have gone down to 2X.

[TangoFoxtrot]

Originally Posted by ak103k

I put a small drop on each mounting screw, and on the Weaver type screws on the rings that use them. Then again, I use it on pretty much anything gun related when it comes to securing things.

Put just enough or you may have problems later on.

[ak103k]

Lube and LocTite seem to be big issue for some people. I guess they never heard the jingle in the old Brylcreem ads.

Seriously, all you need is a "dab", it doesnt take much.