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Old 11-14-2012, 12:42   #1
Glock 1
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Guns and Ammo types for shtf

I live in a suburban area that is kind of off the beaten path. Not hard to find mind you, just out of obvious site. Unless you live out here or drive past the entrance, you probably don't know its here. It's a real pain for new pizza delivery drivers.

The inhabitants of my home make it impossible for me to throw everyone in a car and bug out quickly or on foot due to physical limitations.

About 200 yards behind my house is a medium sized woodsy area (couple hundred acres maybe?) that surrounds a creek. I have no neighbors behind me because it is a 100 yr flood plain. Under the cover of darkness I could move at my own pace to the woodsy area unseen.

It's not ideal and its not on my land. However, in a shtf moment, I have no issue taking a small portion short term to survive or hunting out there as there are loads of rabbits and squirrels around here. I know where the owners live and they won't be going to this land but my neighbors might.

I suspect I will end up holed up in the house. I have guns, ammo, food, a pool (maintained only with bleach), and family members who can shoot. I could last a couple of weeks in food or water so my main worry is defending my home against looters and such and first aid. I know my neighbors and would happily allow them to hunker down with me and mine and consolidate resources. My best friend lives in the same neighborhood and has an arsenal that matches mine almost identical. He has no safe and no pool so he would probably combine resources and ammo if it was really bad.

I am making a list of ammo and guns I should have in stock. Here is the calibers I have and the respective ammo amounts.

Glock 21SF – 50rds
2 Glock 26’s – 450 rds
Bersa 380 – 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun – 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle – 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle – 11,000 rds

What ammo quantity would you add and in what order of importance? I know some numbers are very low but its only recent. I also just got all my 22 in today since its really all I can afford to take to the range now. That is why that number is kinda high.

Are there any other caliber weapons I should have on hand? I already have a AK, 357 revolver w/4” barrel, Glock 23, Glock 17, Mossberg 930SPX, and S&W M&P .22lr pistol on the must have list. Am I missing anything? I don’t want to be paranoid but I do want to be prepared.

If you have any other suggestions I am open to them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:15   #2
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Glock 1,

A Pistol carbine in either 9mm or 45 ACP, this will give you the ability to use the same ammo in two different platforms. Tons of folks make them from Colt, S&W in the high priced range to mid range Just Right Carbines, Thureon defense, to the low priced ones Hi-Point, Kel-tech.

To cover yourself just in case of an extended stay (say things get bad for months at a time), I'd Bump up your 9mm & 45 ACP levels to 1,000 rounds each.

I have a Bersa Thunder 380, that and the G26, these will be great for up close defense. Mag changes will be important, don't run out of ammo because of reloading just one or two mag... get 4 min.

You sound like you are in good position to keep your family safe for some time.

Good luck.
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:20   #3
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Magazines. I missed that part. Hell, I can't believe I didn't think of that. I have a bunch of loaded pmags and 22 mags but only 2 for each handgun. I will add that to the list too.

I will look into the carbine too. Thanks for the idea and the reminder on the mags.
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Last edited by Glock 1; 11-14-2012 at 13:37..
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:45   #4
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i asked my wife a few months ago how much ammo "is enough" for a stock. she gave me a look like i was stupid and said "there is no such thing as "enough" ammo."
love my wife

besides the generic "it depends" i would look at how much ammo you burn up at a range session. my wife and i normally burn up 150-200 rounds ( total ) of 10mm at the range per visit. i would shoot for at least 1k for your pistols. mabey less for hunting rifles. depends on how much practice is needed.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:00   #5
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I would think you are thousands and thousands of rounds short for that AR-15 in a true, honest to God SHTF scenario.

I like your .22LR count for the AR-15. I would also have more shotgun rounds for gathering food in the woods. (At least until that was depleted or run off.)
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:08   #6
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Originally Posted by BierGut View Post
I would think you are thousands and thousands of rounds short for that AR-15 in a true, honest to God SHTF scenario.
This is so mall ninja-ish. Even in a TEOTWAWKI situation, the odds of surviving long enough to need thousands of rounds is miniscule compared to the odds of dying from lack of nutrition or medical care or a hundred other causes.

To the OP: you have plenty of calibers, don't need to add more esoteric ones like .357 Sig. Frankly, in most situations a Glock or two and a long gun with a couple of mags each is going to be more than enough. You're not going to be living Red Dawn. A couple of weeks of food and water? We should be talking months or years before we're talking thousands of rounds of ammo.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 11-14-2012 at 16:14..
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:09   #7
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I would if you can have at least 4 magazines for each gun and the same in speed loaders.
As far as ammo you look with the .22LR and would try to up my level for the other calibers to 800 - 1000.
Shotgun shells about to 500.
You look solid on your guns and the only thing I can see you should be a .22LR rifle that is not in the tactical realm of things and even on the cheaper site of things or even a Ruger 10/22 break down model.
Sometimes less is more.
One reason I like the real cheap .22lr rifles like those $125 Mossbergs and such or some Mosin Nagant ( SP? ) surplus as it is easy to use to arm friends and neighbors and gives you the ability to give some cheap guns to the government should they decide to come around confiscating guns and ammo which could be a real possibility if you look at what happened in Luisiana NO area during Katrina.
May even want to buy a couple dirt cheap pistols for that too, Highpoints come to mind.
Also a couple of weeks of food and water would be my main concern that is way to little even with the ability to hunt.
At the very minimum you should have 3 mos of food and an alternate source of water.
Having a pool is great and all but I would not want to rely on this as my only drinkable source.
I would rather do with less guns and ammo then food and water.
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Old 11-14-2012, 18:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 1 View Post
Glock 21SF – 50rds
2 Glock 26’s – 450 rds
Bersa 380 – 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun – 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle – 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle – 11,000 rds
.
Hard question, but here goes.
I decided on 1K of SD ammo and 10K of practice ammo for each gun. I decided on 11 magazines for gun requiring magazines. Someone said, that is a HELL of a lot of ammo. I tell them, I don't plan on surviving a conflict where I have to use my 1K of SD ammo. This is just in case the laws change and I can NEVER buy ammo again. This being said, I have never reached my goal numbers.

As for what guns to have for SHTF, I don't like your collection. This is what I would get. Then I would buy for the rest of the family. Then I would get spare parts and/or duplicates/replacements. Assuming money and desire.

For personal protection:
1. Micro CCW, (Bersa 380 fits, but I don't like 380. I would grab a micro 9.)
2. Full sized sidearm, (Glock 21SF fits, but can everyone in the family use it? And it is not in the same cartridge as the micro ccw.)
3. Rifle/carbine, (AR-15 fits depending on how it is tricked out. Remember most attacks happen between dusk and dawn.)
4. Do it all shotgun, (20 ga double barrel does not fit this role. There are several shotguns which could fit this role. I found a Remington 870 with a sidesaddle, ammo on the stock, 18.5 rifle sights and screw in modified choke is a pretty good do it all shotgun.)

Bonus points for:
5. SBR (pocket rifles are great as a multi-purpose platform. I am addicted to SBRs.)
6. Heavy long range gun (I still need a BIG heavy like a 50BMG McMillian. Your 308 is at best a medium. With the time I have to practice and my current skill set, all I have is several mediums.)

Practice tools:
1. 22lr handgun or conversion
2. 22lr rifle or conversion (Your .22lr M&P rifle fits)

Hunting:
1. See the "Do it all shotgun" above. Get a second of whatever and don't trick it out tactically. The full length barrel is better for flying things, but the 18.5 with modified choke is great for deer to rabbits.
2. If has been said that everything in North American can be hunted with a 30-06. I believe it is true, but not the best idea. I would suggest doing the 4 gun battery. Light=22LR (See practice gun above), Varmint=222 through 22-250, Medium 243 though 300 Weatherby Mag (the core deer cartridges), Heavy 338 through 600N (This is to keep elephants out of your yard. So far I have not had any elephant in my yard since I got my 458WM. It can also be loaded down and used for deer.)
3. Combo gun. I want a 12ga over 308. I will get one. When I need food and don't know what I will find to kill......it will be my game getter gun.
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Old 11-14-2012, 18:51   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 1 View Post

Glock 21SF – 50rds
2 Glock 26’s – 450 rds
Bersa 380 – 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun – 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle – 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle – 11,000 rds

If you have any other suggestions I am open to them.
My advice, worth every penny ;-)

I would want 500 of 45 ACP, 1000 for the AR, and 250 for the .308. I can't see needing that much 380, 38sp, or 20ga for a double barrel and I think your current stock is sufficient. I would not worry about more weapons in different calibers. If you pick up another long gun I would get a second AR and another 500 rounds. 4 mags for the pistols and 10 for the AR.

Spend the extra money on food and a water filter system, first aid supplies, etc.


John
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Old 11-14-2012, 19:04   #10
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Alot of great info and alot of you are on the same wave length as me.

I had some numbers in mind and you have echoed them so I must be thinking right. 1000 rds of handgun calibers, 1000 shotgun, and about 2000 for the AR. The 22 M&P is my toy and the pistol will be too.

And yes, a 10/22 is on the short list. I actually am waiting for my distributor to get the take down 10/22's back in stock. That is a wicked little gun there.

I think the 10/22 and the 12 gauge are my more pressing calibers as far as guns to obtain. Ammo is of course paramount right after that.

My wife used to think I was crazy wanting to stock pile ammo. She would look at my 400rds of .223 and 50 rds of 45 and tell me I did not need anymore. Then one day there was a story on the news about angry people in the streets because a police officer shot some stupid crack head in the hood. Then she turns to me and says "do we have plenty of ammo?" I just laughed really loud and said "to live through it or just take a few with us? Because you have two magazines of 9mm and then its pistol whippin time." Ever since then she has not complained about the ammo.

My food and water are being taken care of slowly but I will pass on your input. I was thinking of 55 gallon rain runoff barrels in the back yard under the gutters downspouts too. I might make that a priority now. I have plenty of bleach and a fireplace for boiling or sanitizing it if needed. I also have alot of firewood. Atleast a couple of months worth.

Food is pretty much good to go. We have a good size pantry and keep it stocked with canned goods, coffee (my 1 indulgence) and staples that will not go bad. Cases of veggies, beans, sauces, noodles and all the good stuff. we also have lots of canned meats like spam, deviled ham, vienna sausages, and dried beef. Trips to Sam's have become a monthly endeavor and I ask for bulk items we don't use often and sock it away quietly.

Now, one more thing occurred to me, a first aid kit. I need to read more on here before I ask questions but I want to make my own and need ideas of what to put in it other than scripts.

I have peroxide, band-aids, chemical ice packs, alcohol, iodine, Mercurochrome, suturing needle and thread, bandages, scissors, and the usual ointments like anti-itch, antibiotic, and burn cream.

I still need a snake bite kit, wasp sting kit, and epi-pens. The snake kit is because we have snakes and the others are for household allergies.

I am sure there is much more but I will read some of those threads and see what I have missed.

Thanks again for all your input. My wife calls me paranoid and I tell her its only paranoia if you never have to use it. She says, so in the end when I tell you I told you so, what then? I told her I would simply be wrong and she would be right. Again. But, it gets me peace of mind.
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Old 11-14-2012, 19:16   #11
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Hard question, but here goes.
I decided on 1K of SD ammo and 10K of practice ammo for each gun. I decided on 11 magazines for gun requiring magazines. Someone said, that is a HELL of a lot of ammo. I tell them, I don't plan on surviving a conflict where I have to use my 1K of SD ammo. This is just in case the laws change and I can NEVER buy ammo again. This being said, I have never reached my goal numbers.

As for what guns to have for SHTF, I don't like your collection. This is what I would get. Then I would buy for the rest of the family. Then I would get spare parts and/or duplicates/replacements. Assuming money and desire.

For personal protection:
1. Micro CCW, (Bersa 380 fits, but I don't like 380. I would grab a micro 9.)
2. Full sized sidearm, (Glock 21SF fits, but can everyone in the family use it? And it is not in the same cartridge as the micro ccw.)
3. Rifle/carbine, (AR-15 fits depending on how it is tricked out. Remember most attacks happen between dusk and dawn.)
4. Do it all shotgun, (20 ga double barrel does not fit this role. There are several shotguns which could fit this role. I found a Remington 870 with a sidesaddle, ammo on the stock, 18.5 rifle sights and screw in modified choke is a pretty good do it all shotgun.)

Bonus points for:
5. SBR (pocket rifles are great as a multi-purpose platform. I am addicted to SBRs.)
6. Heavy long range gun (I still need a BIG heavy like a 50BMG McMillian. Your 308 is at best a medium. With the time I have to practice and my current skill set, all I have is several mediums.)

Practice tools:
1. 22lr handgun or conversion
2. 22lr rifle or conversion (Your .22lr M&P rifle fits)

Hunting:
1. See the "Do it all shotgun" above. Get a second of whatever and don't trick it out tactically. The full length barrel is better for flying things, but the 18.5 with modified choke is great for deer to rabbits.
2. If has been said that everything in North American can be hunted with a 30-06. I believe it is true, but not the best idea. I would suggest doing the 4 gun battery. Light=22LR (See practice gun above), Varmint=222 through 22-250, Medium 243 though 300 Weatherby Mag (the core deer cartridges), Heavy 338 through 600N (This is to keep elephants out of your yard. So far I have not had any elephant in my yard since I got my 458WM. It can also be loaded down and used for deer.)
3. Combo gun. I want a 12ga over 308. I will get one. When I need food and don't know what I will find to kill......it will be my game getter gun.
Wow, I am coming to your house if the shtf. lol. Better yet, I will stay atleast 2000 yards away and call ahead.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:13   #12
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Hard question, but here goes.
I decided on 1K of SD ammo and 10K of practice ammo for each gun. I decided on 11 magazines for gun requiring magazines. Someone said, that is a HELL of a lot of ammo. I tell them, I don't plan on surviving a conflict where I have to use my 1K of SD ammo. This is just in case the laws change and I can NEVER buy ammo again. This being said, I have never reached my goal numbers.

As for what guns to have for SHTF, I don't like your collection. This is what I would get. Then I would buy for the rest of the family. Then I would get spare parts and/or duplicates/replacements. Assuming money and desire.

For personal protection:
1. Micro CCW, (Bersa 380 fits, but I don't like 380. I would grab a micro 9.)
2. Full sized sidearm, (Glock 21SF fits, but can everyone in the family use it? And it is not in the same cartridge as the micro ccw.)
3. Rifle/carbine, (AR-15 fits depending on how it is tricked out. Remember most attacks happen between dusk and dawn.)
4. Do it all shotgun, (20 ga double barrel does not fit this role. There are several shotguns which could fit this role. I found a Remington 870 with a sidesaddle, ammo on the stock, 18.5 rifle sights and screw in modified choke is a pretty good do it all shotgun.)

Bonus points for:
5. SBR (pocket rifles are great as a multi-purpose platform. I am addicted to SBRs.)
6. Heavy long range gun (I still need a BIG heavy like a 50BMG McMillian. Your 308 is at best a medium. With the time I have to practice and my current skill set, all I have is several mediums.)

Practice tools:
1. 22lr handgun or conversion
2. 22lr rifle or conversion (Your .22lr M&P rifle fits)

Hunting:
1. See the "Do it all shotgun" above. Get a second of whatever and don't trick it out tactically. The full length barrel is better for flying things, but the 18.5 with modified choke is great for deer to rabbits.
2. If has been said that everything in North American can be hunted with a 30-06. I believe it is true, but not the best idea. I would suggest doing the 4 gun battery. Light=22LR (See practice gun above), Varmint=222 through 22-250, Medium 243 though 300 Weatherby Mag (the core deer cartridges), Heavy 338 through 600N (This is to keep elephants out of your yard. So far I have not had any elephant in my yard since I got my 458WM. It can also be loaded down and used for deer.)
3. Combo gun. I want a 12ga over 308. I will get one. When I need food and don't know what I will find to kill......it will be my game getter gun.
That must be a tough addiction. Does one give you the "fix" for good with plenty of ammo? Or must you continue buying more/new SBRs to temporarily pacify the addiction? The trouble is the fact that you must do more than just pay for them. I guess you reside in a state that allows them to be obtained "relatively" easily. (Maryland?)

Last edited by BR549; 11-15-2012 at 08:17..
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:02   #13
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If you have any other suggestions I am open to them.

Really good answers above...

.. but also & pointedly....

I would ask someone starting out to look very closely at logistics & weak links in their "preparedness philosophy".



Like....if things got really bad...

How quick could they relocate their ammo stores??

What is the maximum amount they could relocate if using every member of their party??

How quickly could they load stored ammo into magazines??

Do you have a means to allow non-shooters to quickly replenish ammo into magazines??


As it doesn't matter if you have thousands or 10's of thousands of rounds per gun..

..if you cannot replenish magazines quickly enough to defeat the threats!


Questions like these can be answered here....

http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpr...st=0&sk=t&sd=a



Also you might look at optics (Aimpoint, EOTech, etc) for your long guns that allow quicker, more effective targeting on moving targets..

..especially during low light & night time hours.

Night Vision is value added here!

You can waste a lot of ammo if you cannot see what is assaulting you & yours!


Striving to make each round of your ammo count....

..is what counts!



As far as what additional weapons (or add ons) you might add..

That really depends on your budget & how far you want to go..

I would have a inexpensive, reliable, compact, semi-auto pistol with holster & extra mag for every secondary member you expect to have in your group....standardized...something like a Makarov (I have CZ-82 loaners)

Also a training gun for each of the younger members..

..this setup was my daughter's 10th birthday present.

Survival/Preparedness Forum


...which led to this Saiga for her 13th birthday present,,

Survival/Preparedness Forum



Longer range DMRs for adults in the group...

Survival/Preparedness Forum
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:23   #14
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Keep the 22, then decide on 1 rifle and 1 pistol, sell the rest and convert proceeds into ammo and mags. I recommend the AR or the AK and the Glock. If you need to arm a sig other, duplicate the rifle and pistol.


This advice is viable ONLY to someone unsure enough to ask the question on this forum, so the rest of you knowitalls, please dont bother to try to argue with me.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:01   #15
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Originally Posted by Akita View Post
Keep the 22, then decide on 1 rifle and 1 pistol, sell the rest and convert proceeds into ammo and mags. I recommend the AR or the AK and the Glock. If you need to arm a sig other, duplicate the rifle and pistol.


This advice is viable ONLY to someone unsure enough to ask the question on this forum, so the rest of you knowitalls, please dont bother to try to argue with me.
OK, Why?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:15   #16
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Keep the 22, then decide on 1 rifle and 1 pistol, sell the rest and convert proceeds into ammo and mags. I recommend the AR or the AK and the Glock. If you need to arm a sig other, duplicate the rifle and pistol.


This advice is viable ONLY to someone unsure enough to ask the question on this forum, so the rest of you knowitalls, please dont bother to try to argue with me.

More good advice...IMO!

Many ways to approach & implement a solid plan!
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:36   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akita View Post
Keep the 22, then decide on 1 rifle and 1 pistol, sell the rest and convert proceeds into ammo and mags. I recommend the AR or the AK and the Glock. If you need to arm a sig other, duplicate the rifle and pistol.


This advice is viable ONLY to someone unsure enough to ask the question on this forum, so the rest of you knowitalls, please dont bother to try to argue with me.
I really don't totally agree or disagree with you.
I think 1 Pistol and 1 rifle is not enough but also think that people focus to much on Tactical gear to much too.
And I don't mean this as a hobby that gear is fine and ones choice but for prepping there are way more important items to concentrate on then so much gear.

So I'm sort of in between of what you say and believe that every person in your group or family should have 2 handguns a good larger caliber rifle or even as little as 1 Tactical rifle like a AR, AK or SKS or Pistol caliber Carbine strictly for defensive purpose.
Past that point I look at other guns for more survival in mind but could be dual purpose.
a couple of 22lr rifles as they can be used for both even the merits can be argued for both sides but pound for pound on economics it gives you the biggest bang for the buck and also when considering weight.
The same goes for a shotgun as a dual purpose but I could see myself leaving behind if I had too.
And lastly a straight up long distance / hunting rifle like 30-06 or anything in that same weight caliber.
Also something that could be sacrifice if needed to be.

If pressed to be able to only to take 2 I would take one handgun with ample ammo and a .22lr with loads of ammo and would feel okay about it but rather had 2 of each.

Last edited by dukeblue91; 11-15-2012 at 10:39..
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:11   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock 1 View Post
...
Glock 21SF – 50rds
2 Glock 26’s – 450 rds
Bersa 380 – 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun – 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle – 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle – 11,000 rds

What ammo quantity would you add and in what order of importance? I know some numbers are very low but its only recent. I also just got all my 22 in today since its really all I can afford to take to the range now. That is why that number is kinda high.

Are there any other caliber weapons I should have on hand? I already have a AK, 357 revolver w/4” barrel, Glock 23, Glock 17, Mossberg 930SPX, and S&W M&P .22lr pistol on the must have list...
Imo, a lot of good advice above on guns to switch ‘from & to’, but it might (might) be more efficient to work with what you’ve got, at least for the most part.

You’ve got three very-good, first-line defensive handguns in the glocks. I’d add more magazines as have been said, including some 15- or 17-rounders for the G26’s with A&G grip adapters, giving them full-size capacity. Any one of those three makes you as well-armed handgun-wise as most cops or soldiers; and you’ve got three of them.

Not sure about the .38 revolver. Is it large, small, snubnose, target-barrel…? It might fill one (or more) of several roles.

You’ve got one decent semi-deep concealment gun with the .380 bersa. Not ideal size-wise compared to the new & uber-small options like an LCP & such nowadays, but it wasn’t many years ago that that was “the” size for a ccw .380 automatic. No reason it wouldn’t still fill that role as well as it used to. Frankly, 300 rounds might be fine for that. I’d want more, but that’s want, not need.

For long guns, the AR is a fine platform. Make sure you & the others know how to use it, have a good sling (VERY important imo), backup sights if you’re using optics, and at least a handful of extra magazines (quality magazines; either GI or magpul for my personal opinion). As much ammo as you can swing after other priorities are met, but the 400 would be absolute bare minimum imo. I’d want several times that.

Shotgun – weak there. May be a great gun, but two shots is just two shots. Maybe pick up a $250 20-gauge pump to go along with it..?

I’d get more ammo for the .308, but that’s just me. Even if it were mediocre ammo and not premium stuff; I’d want more than 60 rounds for it.

On .22’s, I’d REALLY look into another rifle or two. A handgun would be nice, but you’ve already got five handguns, so a .22 handgun would be a low priority for me in your situation. Catch marlin 795‘s or such on sale for $125-$150 and buy two of them along with several spare magazines for each, and that’s a pretty cheap option for greatly (imo) improving your position in regards to small game hunting and unskilled or semi-skilled operator use.

JMO. Everyone’s opinion and situation will be different.
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Old 11-15-2012, 13:10   #19
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Originally Posted by Glock 1 View Post
Wow, I am coming to your house if the shtf. lol. Better yet, I will stay atleast 2000 yards away and call ahead.
It is like golfing with a complete set of clubs or just a 1wood & 4iron. At least where I played I could get away with just those two clubs if I had to, but it nice knowing I had a complete set of clubs if I needed them.

If you want just a few clubs, then I need to know the limitations of the group, better idea of the location and in the end you may really really want something more and not have it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 13:22   #20
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
It is like golfing with a complete set of clubs or just a 1wood & 4iron. At least where I played I could get away with just those two clubs if I had to, but it nice knowing I had a complete set of clubs if I needed them.

If you want just a few clubs, then I need to know the limitations of the group, better idea of the location and in the end you may really really want something more and not have it.

Ummmm.....what club would this equate to?


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