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Old 02-20-2011, 17:03   #26
Foxtrotx1
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What about people that just shoot because its a passion? I spend several K on ammo a year because I like things that go bang. No zombies here.
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Old 02-20-2011, 17:39   #27
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Category B and D here I guess if I had to put myself into them. Looking to bump to C/D now that I have enough money to take things a little more seriously. Time to go from 10/63 to SLG 21-76 and M&P15T to something BCM, but I am keeping the other guns to keep beating up on anyways.
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Old 02-20-2011, 18:17   #28
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I see these threads and I bite my lip and try not to respond

But....

The first problem with categorizing shooters or guns or placing them on tiers is that much of the criteria used is subjective. Basically opinion with no basis in fact. Many things are choices or options based on a particular need not indicative of quality.

The second problem is that people tend to think they can substitute equipment for skill. That think they can buy an expensive gun and it will give them special powers. I like good stuff but I very often take stock guns to shooting matches just to show up the guys who try to buy respectability.

The third problem is that people think expensive equals reliability. Ever shoot IPSC? IDPA or some of the other games? Ever see one of those expensive race guns fail? I have, lots of times. Ever see those training sessions where the guys shoot a thousand rounds in a weekend? Is that even remotely related to real life? Is that even even remotely related to reliability in your carry gun?

I could go on and on about training and gun games etc, but I won't.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:06   #29
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I see these threads and I bite my lip and try not to respond

But....

The first problem with categorizing shooters or guns or placing them on tiers is that much of the criteria used is subjective. Basically opinion with no basis in fact. Many things are choices or options based on a particular need not indicative of quality.
I am not sure your understanding the intent of this post. If someone asks what type of rifle should they buy, or do they need and expensive red dot optic or a scope, it is very hard to give an accurate or informed opinion without understanding what type of shooter that person is, or what their exact usage needs are. Once a shooters needs and budget are understood, then a more accurate idea of what quality or price range they can look at purchasing. Just like my example as a golfer. I can be classified as an occasional or recreational golfer somewhere between novice and intermediate who does not wish to spend a fortune on clubs. Now a professional can suggest what clubs and brands that might suit my needs. I don't need the top of the line clubs in every single club available with the most expensive bag or golf shoes. Hope that example helps without offending people on classifying someone in an attempt to accurately give weapons and gear advice. I sure as heck don't want to be told I need certain expensive golf clubs or bags when I really don't need or want them. I understand that I am going to buy quality, but I know that I am not buying THE BEST clubs on the market. I understand this and am quite happy with my choices.

With weapons also, we should be realistic with our shooting needs, budget and purchase accordingly. From there we should be happy with what we have and have a good time. I am just as happy hacking up the golf course every other weekend or once a month with my mid level equipment and clubs, but I am not going to say that they are better than XYZ brand when they are not. Now if I happen to out golf another guy using THE BEST clubs on the market good for me, but that really has nothing to do with what is good for my needs / desires.

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The second problem is that people tend to think they can substitute equipment for skill. That think they can buy an expensive gun and it will give them special powers. I like good stuff but I very often take stock guns to shooting matches just to show up the guys who try to buy respectability.
This has nothing to do with my original post and this thread. I never tell anyone that weapons, gear or optics are a substitute for basic fundamentals and proper learning. I did not elude to this, nor did I think anyone else did either in this thread. This is another topic and I would be happy to discuss it in another thread.

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The third problem is that people think expensive equals reliability. Ever shoot IPSC? IDPA or some of the other games? Ever see one of those expensive race guns fail? I have, lots of times. Ever see those training sessions where the guys shoot a thousand rounds in a weekend? Is that even remotely related to real life? Is that even even remotely related to reliability in your carry gun?

I could go on and on about training and gun games etc, but I won't.
This thread really wasn't about gamers. However as this thread mentions understanding what our intentions are for a weapon by classifying the type of shooting that we do or what the particular weapon is to be used for can give an accurate assessment of what type of weapon they should be looking at. If someone wants to purchase a rifle to use as a strictly competition weapon, then we can start looking in a certain direction. If we can then classify them as a shooter we can further narrow down their needs. Are they just wanting to try out 3 gun and maybe do it once a month but never really competed before? Or are they a very competitive IDPA or IPSC type and now want a top level competition style rifle in an attempt to compete at a high level of 3 gun. Of course we might suggest different set ups for each of these 2 types of shooters. The first guy might be well suited to jump in with a basically stock mid level rifle. The second guy might want a higher performing weapon with more bells and whistles.

I never said that competition shooters or gaming relates to real life defensive types of situations. It is a game or a sport, but testing out our defensive weapons and gear in a sporting environment can help vet our weapons and gear as long as we understand the sporting aspect is not a substitution for defensive shooting. Pure competition shooters can afford to have failures in a game. Reliability can at times be a trade off for fractions of a second. We also need to understand failure rates. High level shooters often shoot high volumes of ammunition. By strictly looking at it statistically they will have more failures than those who shoot lower round counts, but yes by the nature of their weapons, they can have issues.

Now we classified them as a competition only shooter wanting a competition weapon. If they say that want one for home defense, that is a different aspect or classification altogether. No one said a competition shooter has to use their competition weapon for home or personal defense. But if they want to use their personal defense weapon for competition, go for it. By understanding or classifying their shooting type, needs, desires and budget we can correctly suggest weapon choices. Which is one of the main goals of this thread. People being realistic about their needs, type of shooting they do and budget and be realistic about their purchase. From there go out and have a good time with it.
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:14   #30
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What about people that just shoot because its a passion? I spend several K on ammo a year because I like things that go bang. No zombies here.
Again this thread isn't to strictly lump people into categories. It is about getting a realistic understanding of what they want to do with their rifle. However if you were to say "I want an AR but am not familiar with which rifle to purchase" I can start making a suggestion with the limited information that you gave me. I would want to know more about the type of shooting that you do such as long range precision, or up close target shooting. Again I am attempting to find out or classify your needs. But just from being a recreational but high volume shooter I would probably suggest either a mid level or a top quality rifle based on this. If I narrowed down your needs more, I could be more specific. I don't get why people get so upset about attempting to classify a persons shooting types when it comes to attempting to suggest a weapon for them? Just like my golfing analogy. It very much helps them to get the right stuff.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:12   #31
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This is exactly the case. Or often people will buy a lower quality rifle and then dress it up with all the most expensive accessories and optics. Not that this is a problem for most users, but in reality the weapon is the heart of the system, not the stuff you hang on it.
Ohmigosh.

This is quite possibly the most intelligent thing I've read today.



Surf, your OP was long, lol, but very well thought out & very well written. Should fall under "required reading" for anyone new to BRF. Before they post our four millionth "What AR should I buy" thread.

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Old 08-13-2012, 02:58   #32
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........

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Old 08-13-2012, 11:13   #33
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yay a sticky!!!!!!
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Old 08-13-2012, 18:29   #34
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I would say I fit into B category and at first bought an A type of AR--- it's great for the range...and some plinking. I then started doing some research, lurking on the posts on GT and M4 carbine, asking a few friends in LE what they recommend and then I bought what I would consider a D type for the exact reasons that Surf posted. Do I regret the A type.. no but I am darn glad I have the D type as well.

Great post Surf and keep up the videos on Youtube....
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:00   #35
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Yeah....the whole trying to catagorize people thing just doesn't work.

And the AR crowd is large, varied and vocal.

Almost nothing humans do is for ONE reason, but rather for several different reasons put together. Hence, the why, what and how of people buying ARs is 100% individual.

Hell, I myself could fit into any of three of those catagories at different times.

Still, a nice post for noobs to start their thinking process with.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:54   #36
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No, I'm being serious. It's not like I'm some soldier or something. I just need it to impress chicks. The cooler and more futuristic looking, the better.
I think more people than care to admit on GT fall into this category.
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Old 09-04-2012, 22:59   #37
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That's the nice thing about the AR platform - there are a LOT of quality choices out there!

There isn't a difference out there that would make me spend $3000 on an $800 gun, but that's just me.

There are a LOT of $500 AK's that really do run flawlessly. There is the whole accuracy trade-off thing to consider though. Spending $3000 on an AK isn't going to make it 120% reliable...
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:39   #38
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Another thread screwed up by a few idiots!
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:45   #39
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Surf, seems as though your OP is oriented toward the "what rifle should I buy?" questions. And you mention knowing about the shooter as being important.

Ok, what rifle should I buy?

First thing you need to know about me is I have a wife. Purchases need joint approval. She has ideas for any extra money the household has. A new gun isn't a priority for her. Ok, she'll let me spend $500. She won't be happy when tax takes it to $580, but she'll adjust to that. A purchase price over $600 would be a big violation.

So, from the husband's point of view, it is "What can I get for X dollars?" Knowing full well that the purchase has to be made before an unexpected car repair, or need for a new kitchen stove, changes the wife's mind.

Now about the husband. I'm not a soldier, not LEO, don't live in a high crime area, don't often go to the bad parts of town. I can hunt just fine with my existing $400 scoped .30-06 bolt-action. At the bench, it only shoots 2" groups at 100 yards. Most hunting shots are only out to 75 yards in the woods. Off-hand I can hit a 6" circle reliably at 100 yards, so I figure I'm good to go.

For protection, I've always got my Glock 26 on me. I'm casual IDPA, qualified as Marksman. I figure I can shoot better than 90% of the people I see at the range. If Navy Seals come after my home, I'd be in trouble. But otherwise, I feel pretty confident I can protect my home if some local thief decides to become an armed thug and threaten mayhem.

I've got 30 other guns of various types, rifles, pistols, shotguns. Some from when I was a kid, some specifically for the wife, some for teaching. Runs from bird hunting to .22lr bullseye at the local club. Happen to do some NRA pistol instructing to newbies, and help people get their permits.

For $500, might find a good deal on a Savage 10FP .308, with a cheap scope. Did that, and got .75" 100 yard groups. A different year, another $500 limit, might decide to get a Saiga 16", 7.62x39, sidemount detachable scope, kept in sporter stock. Cool gun, fills a potential home defense role if needed. Newbies like to shoot it too. 300 rounds a year, no jams, clean once a year.

Ok, how about a $1,000 rifle? $1,500? Come on wife, I've been good. Maybe a bulls eye pistol, S&W 41. Maybe a Colt Python? Maybe a Glock 10mm (and not spend so much)? Or maybe an AR?

Ok, it is agreed, $1,500 is the limit. Wife on board with it. Husband doesn't necessarily want to spend all that because he's also thinking of getting a couple dirt-bikes for him and his 7yr old son next year (will be 8 then). Still he's always kinda wanted an AR. Has an Interarms Mark X scoped .223 bolt that can't stabilize 62gr, but gets 1.25" at 100 yards with 55gr soft point Black Hills. Good light woodchuck gun, for humping in the fields. Has delivevered quite a few off-hand head shots over the years. Would be nice if the AR could shoot the same ammo.

Don't need to scope the AR, but maybe would. Not sure. Maybe go old school with iron sights. Maybe a 3x9 scope. Maybe a red dot. Short M-4 style or longer A2 style? Don't know. Kinda like the old Vietnam War era look of the M-16. Should the AR look like that? Mainly will use at the range, or in the back yard. Live in the country. Maybe hunt varmits, but already have the bolt .223 and a lever .22mag for that. Maybe home defense, but there's not much need for that. I keep a Beretta 92, 15round mags at the ready for that, in addition to my carry gun so it is ready for the wife. Also have that Saiga ready to go. The AR is more for just wanting an AR, for the fun of shooting it.

Can the AR shoot 5.56 ok, and still be ok with .223, especially 55gr soft points? Never ever jam? (That was one reason for getting the Saiga). Will it be capable of less than 2" groups at 100 yards out of the box? (if I scope it, or get real good with irons). Even the Saiga does 3.5" in my hands and cheap Wolf ammo. Could the AR also handle heavier ammo if I wanted it to, without keyholing like my Interarms Mark X does with the 62gr? Will it take all kinds of mags easy? NY is a ban state, so I can't be too choosey about the pre-ban mags I might find.

Oh, would it be legal for some sort of CMP match? Not sure what clubs do that, but maybe I'd look into it. Heck, maybe my own club does it. I've been more involved with pistol.

So, I don't know if I'm typical or atypical, but this is how I'm approaching the potential buy of an AR. And a little horsey on the side probably gets bonus points because while I've got 5 S&W in my house, I don't have any Colts.

Cool, I'm a category A+!

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Old 11-01-2012, 19:40   #40
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Somebody read the OP and give me a short synopsis of what he said.

"I spent $4k on my rifle for bragging rights. Don't tell me your $900 rifle is just as good, just because it suits your needs and never fails".
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Old 11-01-2012, 21:14   #41
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I have been shooting black rifles since the 80's. I have owned many and I could probably purchase a motor-home with all the money I spent sending lead down range. Honestly, I have not shot my black rifle once, in the past year. I am not sure what that exactly means to other people but to me- that fact in a of itself doesnt lend much insite to my personality, training, skills, music or cut of steak that I like.
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Old 11-01-2012, 22:12   #42
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Another thread screwed up by a few idiots!
I think this is once again appropriate.
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Old 11-01-2012, 22:41   #43
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As far as a "self-defense" rifle goes, I have but one: Daniel Defense M4 with Eotech 512. Did I pass the test?
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:39   #44
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It left me scratching my head too.
It's stupid, condescending bull**** and merely the opinion of a Chart Fan Boy with a lot of time on his hands. It shouldn't be a sticky, and the fact it is, reflects poorly on this Black Rifle Forum.

Look how he describes people in stupid category A. "Impress people, to be brought out at parties". This is a childish attack on anyone that doesn't agree with him on brand. Category B: "dedicated weekend warrior". WTF?

Which category covers someone who buys Noveske because it's the only rifle he would trust his life to in N Dallas, and takes pictures of himself on the range wearing a drop leg pistol holster with 30 round magazine in a Glock? Is that a "dedicated weekend warrior" in spite of him buying Noveske?

What about the categories he left out?

Category E: Immature people who never see combat, want bragging rights, and want to be considered the GTBRF guru.

People who buy because they are afraid of another ban and don't want to spend $2k+ on a rifle and ammo?

People who have a life, don't live on gun boards, and genuinely know very little about brands, and are told at the LGS that all they need is Stag, RRA, or Bushmaster.

People wanting one for competition, but is on a budget, and doesn't see losing a match as justification for spending double the money. And having nothing to do with impressing ninjas or winning a gold medal.

People who want an EBR, but have kids in college or private school, and has their priorities in order.

People who want an EBR but have families with needs and make the mature parental decision that their children's needs come first.

People who DO NOT live in N Dallas, and don't see much combat.

My category: People who reload, shoot a lot, own Colt and BCM, and bought a couple beaters to paint camo and use on coyotes, and didn't want to paint the Colt or BCM.

I can make up as many categories as the OP, but without appearing to think I am superior and without the condescension. And there are a lot more types of people than those that fit in his narrow minded 4 categories.

The fact this made a sticky is a reflection on the type of Black Rifle Forum this is. Mostly a bunch of small minded, childish, amateur wannabees who think spending a ton of money on a rifle, and reading Arfcom and M4carbine.net makes them an expert.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:20   #45
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It is about getting a realistic understanding of what they want to do with their rifle.
Your post is anything but realistic. It's more silly than anything.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:24   #46
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I see these threads and I bite my lip and try not to respond
sometimes it's hard leaving them to their delusions.



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I could go on and on about training and gun games etc, but I won't.
No need, everyone but the knuckleheads already know.


Imagine, all AR shooters fit into 4 categories.
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:48   #47
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Snip....blah, blah, blah...
You obviously miss the intent of the thread and the tongue in cheek generalizations on groupings of people that is often made fun of on forums. Rather that people should be realistic about what their uses are for the rifle, what their budget entails and make choices that will make THEM happy about their purchase no matter what they choose. Ya know, being an informed buyer.

Perhaps when you get your panties out of a bunch you will feel better. Until then you have absolutely no clue what your talking about in regards to many things you said.
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:01   #48
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The detractors will always be there. The funny part is they are the ones who could use the most help.

This thread was stickied for a good reason.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:31   #49
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Any rifle is better than No rifle...
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:37   #50
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Any rifle is better than No rifle...
When you don't have a choice. This is not the case for most of us however.
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