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Old 11-22-2012, 03:46   #1
4949shooter
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Tazz

I was reading your discourse with Mas on the GATE self defense forum. If you don't mind me asking, I am curious as to why you choose to load Winchester Black Talons at 900 FPS in your G29 as opposed to a 1200 FPS loading.

By the way, Happy Thanksgiving to the Ten Ring.

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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post

Hi Mas, nice to chat with you again. Last time was at the SHOT Show back in '96 at the Haarts booth.

I hear what you're saying, which is why i'm so into proper bullet/load selection, etc. There is a bit of a dilemma that each of us that aims to defend ourselves inevitably has to deal with and that is the fact that we never really know everything we are going to be up against in a personal defense situation, and so it so important to try to research and pick what might be best for the widest variety of situation/target/barrier combinations we might encounter. We never know what kind of clothing an attacker might wear, or if the attacker is going to be using cover to attack from, (like a car), or how massive and solid and "big boned" an attacker might be. Where i live, in any given day, at any moment, the attacker could be a big huge human, or a good sized black bear... or a little "pip squeak"... There is no time to "switch loads" for one or the other.

If someone attacks you with a gun from the cover of a car and has you pinned down it's best to have a weapon/load combo capable of at least having a chance of punching through the car and still having enough "damaging potential" to hit the guy and stop him. One never knows how much bone or whatever might hinder that process.

So, my school of thought is to have the most powerful and versatile weapon that is still practical for "everyday" use. For me, right now, that's a Glock 29 with a 20 round mag filled with 200gr Black Talons. I figure i'm lucky if i get 900 fps out of the combo. Personally, i'd rather have them kicking out at 1200 fps, but that's another story. Fact is i like the bullet design (a heavy bullet with hard "knuckles" on the leading edge to potentially break bone and "punch through" followed by the razor sharp "talons" if i get lucky on the expansion, and enough left over "umph" to hopefully nail and damage the spine) and it's proven to work pretty well in the wide variety of testing i've done.

At any rate... the idea is to be able to punch through whatever is in the way and get to the so-called "vitals" and do as much incapacitating damage to the attacker(s) as possible in order to "shut him/her/them down" and "stop" the attack as quickly and efficiently as possible.

An FMJ or "ball round" in a handgun is absolutely out of the question as it's highly likely to just "zip through", do minimal damage to vitals, and keep going with plenty of left over velocity into who-knows-what or whom that is not the intended target, the attacker. It's just irresponsible from the start, in my thinking.

With a properly designed hollow point bullet and velocity, the bullet is most likely going to flatten out or otherwise change shape significantly after hitting. This means that if it does penetrate beyond the intended attacker, it is likely already lost almost all of its velocity and that combined with the flattened front end or tumbling, etc., is not likely to do any real significant damage to whatever it might hit. In other words, it has lost pretty much all of it's "damage-ability"... and so, not likely to really cause much harm, if any, to "innocents"... and any damage it might cause could more than likely be "fixed up" by a good doctor.

So, "overpenetration that causes damage to an innocent" is really, more or less, in the same category of a "well intentioned miss", except the miss has the potential to do a whole lot more damage to an innocent.

A good example is in a crowded theater or shopping mall situation. You can't "miss", BUT, you HAVE to do SOMETHING... and one has to be instantly ready to properly and accurately act if "talking the attacker down" doesn't work. And, frankly, based on experience, sometimes the "talking step", should just be completely skipped.

At a certain point, over-thinking a dire emergency situation is potentially going to get WAY more innocent people killed than a well intentioned miss... and so "you just got to shoot 'em".

Sorry for the long post.
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Old 11-22-2012, 23:49   #2
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I'm curious myself. My duty load is a Winchester Ranger T Series 180 gr. in .40 S&W (the Black Talon without the black). I'm pretty sure I'm getting better than 900 FPS out of them and the carry package (G27, G23, G22) are much easier to carry.

BTW, in a very recent shooting, these rounds did great work on a parolee. Clean entrance wounds, nasty exit wounds.
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Old 11-23-2012, 00:18   #3
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Hi guys,

I WISH i had them going 1200 fps! I was supposed to have Mike at DoubleTap pull them and pump them up, but, for whatever reason we never got around to it.

The "900fps" i guesstimated. I don't really know what it is. I wish i did. All i know is that these bullets work quite well even though they are anemically slow.

I've also been so busy lately i haven't been keeping up with current loadings. Is there a 10mm "Talon" out that is better now?

Thanks!

Oh, and hey, i just merged that thread with Mas and i over into the "Overpenetration" thread here in The 10 Ring to continue it on. Feel free to join in!
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:46   #4
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i wish Winchester still made a 200 grain "talon," I mean "Ranger," bullet. A 10mm loading would be nice, even if it were only going 1050 like the Hornady load.

Thanks for the reply, Tazz.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:42   #5
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For me I carry the Hornady 200XTP's (1170fps) from the Glock 29. The bullet is tough on hard objects and will expand nicely in most soft media. (deer testing too)

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Old 11-23-2012, 14:09   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
i wish Winchester still made a 200 grain "talon," I mean "Ranger," bullet. A 10mm loading would be nice, even if it were only going 1050 like the Hornady load.

Thanks for the reply, Tazz.

Long ago i called Winchester and talked to their guys in charge of which bullets/loads get put in their product line, and they acted so damned corporately politically correct and hypocritical i wanted to puke. I was disgusted. And i told them i wasn't happy with their response at all. They actually talked about the news media response to the bullets, etc. They wouldn't even allow the 200 grainers to be put on the market for reloaders to use for hunting purposes. At the time i talked to them they had completely pulled the "Talon" product line except for "law enforcement" agencies. Then, low and behold, about a year later they come out with a "personal defense" load without the black color lube on the bullets and the new "Ranger" name.

I just checked, they don't have any of the "Ranger" bullets available for reloading. They don't even offer them for personal defense ammo in 10mm, oh, but they offer the 165 and 180 grain for 40 S&W. Obviously they are just playing the numbers game and only making and selling what they can make and sell a crap load of.

180 grain, i think, is a great weight for a bullet... even for hunting. I'm not sure what they would do at hunting velocites, like jacket separation, but, i think it would be worth it to buy them in 40, pull the bullets, and pump them up and test them. There must be somebody that already has. Same thing goes with the 200 grainer old Black Talons... which i have several boxes i got a long time ago CHEAP... hehehe.... Anyway, if the jackets do separate at the higher velocities it would be pretty easy to do a little "crimping" toward the rear of the bullet with a center punch and a home made "10mm cradle anvil" (to prevent the bullet from deforming out of round) and clinch that jacket to the lead.

Another, probably better alternative would be to skip Winchester all together and try to get a company like Barnes to make a all copper bullet with "talons". The way to do that is for a whole bunch of us to get together and continuously beg them. Hey, "customer demand" works... let me tell you... hahaha...

Another alternative is to get a metal lathe and lathe out the copper bullets with the "talons" sticking straight forward, then form the talons by "press curling" them into the hollow cavity ourselves. It would be a bit labor intensive, but, it would be fun and we would have them. And once the tooling was made, etc., it would be a pretty quick and easy operation to keep making them.

I would love to put together all the guys in The 10 Ring that have home shops and all work together to make whatever we want. If there's a will... there's a way.
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Old 11-23-2012, 14:12   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
For me I carry the Hornady 200XTP's (1170fps) from the Glock 29. The bullet is tough on hard objects and will expand nicely in most soft media. (deer testing too)

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I like the XTP's, too, and have a stash of them. And it's really cool that we have DoubleTap and Underwood cranking out hot ammo for us.
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Old 11-23-2012, 15:35   #8
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About the orignal Black Talons, I have a recovered the 200 grain 10mm bullet, where I dispatched a wounded deer with one (factory 980 fps). The shot entered the base of the head behind the right jaw broadside hit, traveled across to the other side of the neck turned and went down the neck, with a wound track that was spiral cut down the left side the neck muscles and cam to rest inside the left front shoulder at the leg joint.

The bullet opened and spread the talon claws outward as advertised!

At the factory velocities of 980 fps muzzle, I would not trust their performance as personal defense. They might be better suited for CQB for LEO in the performance of their duties to bring a perp to justice...

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Old 11-23-2012, 17:26   #9
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Here is a pretty good video on 10mm Black Talon expansion and penetration:

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Old 11-23-2012, 19:21   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
About the orignal Black Talons, I have a recovered the 200 grain 10mm bullet, where I dispatched a wounded deer with one (factory 980 fps). The shot entered the base of the head behind the right jaw broadside hit, traveled across to the other side of the neck turned and went down the neck, with a wound track that was spiral cut down the left side the neck muscles and cam to rest inside the left front shoulder at the leg joint.

The bullet opened and spread the talon claws outward as advertised!

At the factory velocities of 980 fps muzzle, I would not trust their performance as personal defense. They might be better suited for CQB for LEO in the performance of their duties to bring a perp to justice...

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Sounds to me like it did pretty good on that deer. How many inches of travel was it?

Also, often, if a hollowpoint starts out at a higher velocity it will penetrate less because of the increased expansion due to the velocity and also shed weight and so penetrate less.
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Old 11-23-2012, 19:46   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Here is a pretty good video on 10mm Black Talon expansion and penetration:

10mm Black Talon expansion test - YouTube
Cool vid. I've done a bunch of testing on water and an number of other mediums. Water in plastic jugs really doesn't give that good of an idea of how a bullet/load will perform on a human or other animal, but, it does allow you to recover a bullet quite well and see the expansion.

Human skin, though it might feel soft, can be amazingly tough. About the closest medium readily available for ballistic testing would be a slab of bacon with skin on, a rack of pork ribs, followed by gelatin, pork ribs, and another slab of bacon with skin on. Total thickness should be the thickness of a typical human. Put "clothes" on it. To test for so called "overpenetration" double the "simulated human" and put one behind the other. Put a bunched up old blanket behind it all to catch whatever goes beyond. The blanket will prevent any further deformation of the spent bullet. Shoot several bullets so some of the bullets contact ribs and some don't. You can also put a pig spine in there to simulate hits on the human spine. Be sure to "hold it together" so it doesn't all "jump and fall down". It might cost a little bit for the target medium, but, the results will be about as good as you can get. Clear gel is best, as it will show effects, including bone fragments, without having to cut it open. Video it!
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Old 11-23-2012, 20:38   #12
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Tazz, the total bullet trave was about 17" to 19"...The abrupt turn downward along the farside of the neck into the shoulder was the big suprise. The bullet passed behind the right jaw bone, across the base of the neck between the esophagus and the backbone cuting the underside muscles, the neck must have been driven to the farside causing the bullet to turn downward and down the muscles of the neck on the left side coming to rest at the joint of the shoulder blade and leg joint.

The spiral track was nasty! I wouldn't want to get hit by one! BTW, that talons are sharp...be careful just grabing and pulling on them!

I thing they would be much better if driven faster like 1150 fps for Self Defense or 1200 + for hunting purposes!

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Old 11-23-2012, 20:41   #13
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Tazz, I like your pork plan, but it sounds expensive and it might waste an otherwise good pig.

A better idea is to locate one of those ass-clown gangsters with their pants on the ground and use a round on them. No expense (even SAVES money on welfare payouts), no waste of pork and it closely replicates what would happen in a REAL human, like one who has a job and pays taxes. Maybe I shouldn't post when I'm all hopped up on leftovers.

But seriously, as I mentioned above, one of my guys recently used .40 Winchester Ranger T Series, 180 gr. with great results. The bad guy was DRT. recovered rounds expanded perfectly (subject was only wearing a T shirt and tattoos) and the exit wounds were gruesome. 8 out of 9 hit center mass, a few were through and through. I these rounds in .40 did this well, imagine a 10mm version. I guess if we want em we're stuck pulling .40s and re-packing them in a 10. :-(
I feel pretty comfortable with my Underwood 155 gr. GDs in my 29SF and 20SF for now though.
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Old 11-24-2012, 23:54   #14
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Tazz --

I've done just that and posted results here. Do a search in the 10-Ring or 10mm Reloading Forum... It would be something like "Fusion longslide on Memorial Day" or something close. One of my tests was to pull a 180gr SXT from a Short & Weak and load it to 1380fps and shoot through a water jug. The short version is - massive core jacket separation and massive expansion - not in a good way.

We need a REAL bullet designed for REAL 10mm speeds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Long ago i called Winchester and talked to their guys in charge of which bullets/loads get put in their product line, and they acted so damned corporately politically correct and hypocritical i wanted to puke. I was disgusted. And i told them i wasn't happy with their response at all. They actually talked about the news media response to the bullets, etc. They wouldn't even allow the 200 grainers to be put on the market for reloaders to use for hunting purposes. At the time i talked to them they had completely pulled the "Talon" product line except for "law enforcement" agencies. Then, low and behold, about a year later they come out with a "personal defense" load without the black color lube on the bullets and the new "Ranger" name.

I just checked, they don't have any of the "Ranger" bullets available for reloading. They don't even offer them for personal defense ammo in 10mm, oh, but they offer the 165 and 180 grain for 40 S&W. Obviously they are just playing the numbers game and only making and selling what they can make and sell a crap load of.

180 grain, i think, is a great weight for a bullet... even for hunting. I'm not sure what they would do at hunting velocites, like jacket separation, but, i think it would be worth it to buy them in 40, pull the bullets, and pump them up and test them. There must be somebody that already has. Same thing goes with the 200 grainer old Black Talons... which i have several boxes i got a long time ago CHEAP... hehehe.... Anyway, if the jackets do separate at the higher velocities it would be pretty easy to do a little "crimping" toward the rear of the bullet with a center punch and a home made "10mm cradle anvil" (to prevent the bullet from deforming out of round) and clinch that jacket to the lead.

Another, probably better alternative would be to skip Winchester all together and try to get a company like Barnes to make a all copper bullet with "talons". The way to do that is for a whole bunch of us to get together and continuously beg them. Hey, "customer demand" works... let me tell you... hahaha...

Another alternative is to get a metal lathe and lathe out the copper bullets with the "talons" sticking straight forward, then form the talons by "press curling" them into the hollow cavity ourselves. It would be a bit labor intensive, but, it would be fun and we would have them. And once the tooling was made, etc., it would be a pretty quick and easy operation to keep making them.

I would love to put together all the guys in The 10 Ring that have home shops and all work together to make whatever we want. If there's a will... there's a way.
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Old 11-25-2012, 00:38   #15
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Quote:
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Tazz --

I've done just that and posted results here. Do a search in the 10-Ring or 10mm Reloading Forum... It would be something like "Fusion longslide on Memorial Day" or something close. One of my tests was to pull a 180gr SXT from a Short & Weak and load it to 1380fps and shoot through a water jug. The short version is - massive core jacket separation and massive expansion - not in a good way.

We need a REAL bullet designed for REAL 10mm speeds.
Thanks, Nick!

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...sion+longslide
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:38   #16
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Interestingly enough, Speer loads a .40 S&W 200 grain Gold dot in their law enforcement line. Published velocity is 915 fps out of a four inch barrel:

http://le.atk.com/ammunition/speer/h....aspx?id=53883

I wouldn't mind seeing them load this same bullet into a 10mm case and cranking the velocity up a bit, say, to 1050, or whatever the bullet could handle.
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Old 11-25-2012, 13:58   #17
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Yeah, but how does that Speer load perform at such a low velocity? How well does it expand? I like the Gold Dot bullets as they do perform pretty well, but they don't have the talons. They do have a little in the way of cutting edges, but not as much as i like to see.

As for those 180 grain Rangers coming apart at 1373fps, i wonder what they would do if there was a little silver solder or something spread into the hollowpoint in order to slow down the expansion. Maybe even a drop of epoxy into the hollowpoint to make the hollowpoint cavity shallower and so slow down expansion.
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Old 11-25-2012, 19:54   #18
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This is very interesting.

I just bought a bunch of 180gr XTP and 180gr Silver Tips (cost 2x of XTP), recently. I've wondered about 200gr... But hoping that the 180gr going 1,350fps may be sufficient. A stockpile of 180gr may be more versatile, so I thought.


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