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Old 08-31-2011, 19:29   #201
Sam Spade
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Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
So Russ- given that we agree that most are clueless on what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up, do you feel that most should attempt to establish their good guy line?

Or might it be better to suggest that the average CCW holder take several classes from well respected instructors who have related curriculum and formulate their own plan based on the knowledge that they gain from talking/listening to those that know, and what they know about their own ability to think rationally in high stress situations?
Personally, I'd expect that someone who can be trusted or trained to use deadly force can be trusted or trained to articulate why he used deadly force.

I admit that there are many people that I wouldn't want anywhere near me with a gun, but that's a separate discussion.
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Old 08-31-2011, 20:32   #202
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Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
What am I missing here? It's possible I am misinterpreting, but I don't know how. Help!
"Will be clueless", "are clueless", different.
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Old 08-31-2011, 20:40   #203
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"Will be clueless", "are clueless", different.
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:49   #204
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Kentucky KRS 503.080

Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
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Last edited by 45gunner; 11-19-2012 at 19:24..
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:03   #205
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Originally Posted by 45gunner View Post
Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
Maybe someone in KY can respond to the specifics of your question, but I think the take-a-way from all these are the "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios everyone can come up with.

During my CCW class the instructor taught how important it is for every CCW student to spend the time thinking of these scenarios, creating a response and then find what the law might say. This creates the best way for a CCW permit holder to have the best knowledge base to be a responsible permit holder and still protect themselves and their family.

You’ll spend thousands and thousands of hours carrying a handgun to maybe use for a few seconds to save your life or property, shouldn’t you spend a few hours on doing the research to make sure you make the right choice when you need the weapon?

Last edited by TMNKWD; 11-19-2012 at 19:04.. Reason: I'm a dope and forgot to add a paragraph
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:12   #206
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do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?
Two feet is WAY too close. STOP OR I'LL SHOOT.... BANG... (BANG being almost immediate). BTW, as always, shot placement is critical; especially to prevent "He said, She said" in a courtroom afterward.
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:13   #207
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I dont think that I would ever be holding someone at gun point (in public). There is the excpetion of "momentary mili-second" while I decide if they are going to comply with me..but thats it. I simply am not going to "capture" anyone for anything. If I have to use my firearm, I will use it... If I dont have to use it... I will be leaving post haste.

If I have to point a firearm, it will likely be becaues I expect to be pulling the trigger. If a person who comming at me, stops... I will take that opportunity to leave.

capturing people in public, securing them, detaining them or chasing them is all a plan for failure in my book.
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Last edited by FireForged; 11-19-2012 at 19:21..
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:24   #208
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Each individual experiencing the original scenario will have to come to a specific conclusion as to what they will do WHEN THEY (YOU) FEEL THEIR LIFE IS THREATENED. You must think of this now. This is the condition which caused you to draw deadly force in the first place.

Some of you, when push comes to shove, will not be able to kill another human being under any circumstances, some will kill right away because of overriding abject fear (justifiable or not), some will have to believe their lives are still in danger and subsequently shoot because their "final line" has been crossed.

I do believe each of you will (as I have) have to evaluate the specific situation for yourselves and know what your final limit is to pull the trigger. Trying to change others "opinions of what is right", because YOU think you have the answer for everyone else, will have no actual bearing on the final outcome.

What is important here is to understand that you have to have the mindset to do what you have to do, and not be indecisive when the time comes. You have to decide what your life is worth to you, and how to best preserve it.

Remember, you, and only you, will have to try to convince some strangers that you truly believed you did what you had to do to survive, and had no other recourse.

Then, see if these strangers concur with your decision. In the end, do you feel it is worth it to be alive, but serve prison time for a bad or questionable decision, survive the trial and go free, or do you die right there with your last thought being that you MAY have made the right choice. You will have to accept the decision you made on the spur of the moment.

This isn't a pi$$ing contest, it will be your life or death. Make the decision of what life is worth to you and then do what you have to do.
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Old 11-20-2012, 00:40   #209
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If you were in fear for your life before, and now they drop their weapon and are advancing on you, they're not advancing because they want to give you a hug. A reasonable person would believe that the BG is advancing to try to get your weapon and kill you with it.

"Don't come any closer or I shoot!"
[BG moves closer despite warning]
BANG!

Pretty easy to articulate you feared for your life. He already showed means, opportunity, and intent to hurt/kill you. Then, after being warned that he would be shot if he came closer, he came closer anyway. Someone not afraid of being shot, who has already shown an intent to hurt/kill you is a deadly adversary. If he got close enough, he would kill you. VERY reasonable fear for your life right there.

At my agency, such a shooting would be deemed justified under our use of force continuum (and would be within policy for Agent involved shootings too!)

Last edited by blk69stang; 11-20-2012 at 00:43..
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:41   #210
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Sorry, I didn't read everything. I remember several instances over the years when a private citizen pulled on a perp. The perp was actively shooting. When told to 'stop', 'freeze' or whatever, he didn't. The CCW holder was slow to react when the perp swung his muzzle their way. The CCW holder got shot.

I feel it all goes back to the reason you pulled & got involved in the 1st place. Of course the CCW holder operates without any legal department backing them up. Just something to think about before it comes up. There is a time to talk & may come a time to shoot. It may change very fast too.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:55   #211
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Sounds like you've got a decision to make.

Several, actually, and the first one is whether or not you're going to train and study or just treat the pistol as magic.
This is the single most poignant reply to your topic.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:17   #212
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If I am in fear of death or grave bodily harm I shoot them numerous times until I no longer feel that threat. The rest can be sorted out later.

If they had forced entry in my home if they are armed or not or even if they brought weapons at all or not does not matter.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:24   #213
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Shoot and kill because your life was threatened. If you shot them in the back while they retreated, then there might be a problem.
Love Florida's stand your ground law.

Last edited by BADOS; 11-20-2012 at 07:25.. Reason: Grammer
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:16   #214
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:49   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45gunner View Post
Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."

Quote:
503.050 Use of physical force in self-protection --
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.
To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
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Last edited by Bren; 11-20-2012 at 10:04..
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:37   #216
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With all do respect, here's the thing...if you have to think about this, don't carry the gun. The perp will kill you. I had a friend who owned a gun that he kept for protection in his home. Someone broke into his house and he chose not to use the gun he kept loaded in his drawer. Instead he grabbed the guy and the guy killed him. You must kill the perp dead so he has no say. If you can't do this without thinking about it, don't use the gun.
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Old 11-20-2012, 17:48   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."



To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
Thanks for the reply.
Looks like the law has been changed slightly sight I got my CCW training. Exp
(felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.)
Will continue to carry when photographing in that area. Assuming I don't get my car spray painted !
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Last edited by 45gunner; 11-20-2012 at 17:52..
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Old 11-20-2012, 20:18   #218
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Or, if you live in Boulder you'd just dial 911 at that point.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:46   #219
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Originally Posted by 45gunner View Post
Thanks for the reply.
Looks like the law has been changed slightly sight I got my CCW training. Exp
(felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.)
Will continue to carry when photographing in that area. Assuming I don't get my car spray painted !
There were major changes to Chapter 503 in 2006, including the part I mentioned about felonies involving force. You should go read the current version of the chapter - mainly, KRS 503.050, .070 and .085. KRS 503.055 is mentioned a lot, but doesn't really change much.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:23   #220
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To be completely honest, if I draw my gun I WILL be shooting. I can not think of any situation where I would draw and then pause for a conversation or any other action besides me pulling the trigger.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:43   #221
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Wow, just read through all 9 pages. Very interesting how different we all are in the different scenarios. I think it's interesting to note that the OP's scenario could happen everywhere in the USA except Illinois. Citizens are sheep there since they can't carry a gun.

It's very easy for everyone to sit at the keyboard and say what they would do in the varying situations. But when the juices start flowing in the heat of the moment, anything is possible. I wish there were more training programs available where you could train for the various scenarios. LE have those neat simulators to help them train. Wish they were available for classes to the public. If the realism is anywhere near the sims I use for flight training, the training would be invaluable.

BTW, I'm siding towards Bren's advice. Thanks Bren.
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Old 11-21-2012, 17:55   #222
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Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
I asked about shooting below the waist and it would still be intent to kill so you might as well shoot them in the chest and not take the chance of missing

Even if the weapon is dropped the perp is still moving towards you they are still a threat because you can't tell if they have another weapon
In TX the intent to kill would have to be proven. this is the reason that they drive home the following: you draw your weapon and shoot (if it comes to that) with the intention of STOPPING the threat. death from firing your weapon should be incidental, not intentional.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:55   #223
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In TX the intent to kill would have to be proven. this is the reason that they drive home the following: you draw your weapon and shoot (if it comes to that) with the intention of STOPPING the threat. death from firing your weapon should be incidental, not intentional.
I think what he meant to imply that shooting below the waist is still employing deadly force.

The whole argument against shooting to wound being a bad idea hinges on the fact that shooting is use of deadly force whether you intend to kill or not. You realize you don't have justification to kill an attacker, so you shoot them in the leg and they die, your lack of intent to kill is pretty close to irrelevant. "I didn't mean to kill them" doesn't make it a justifiable shooting. At best maybe you get to negligent homicide vs another form of homicide or manslaughter. It falls under you should have known death was a fairly likely option, whether that was your intent or not.

I'm interested in avoiding prison and avoiding being killed. Distinctions that mediate my prison term are not of interest.

I'm no lawyer, I'm sure someone could phrase that better than I just did, and I could be wrong depending on state law.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 11-23-2012 at 13:07..
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Old 11-23-2012, 14:31   #224
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Originally Posted by glock30user View Post
To be completely honest, if I draw my gun I WILL be shooting. I can not think of any situation where I would draw and then pause for a conversation or any other action besides me pulling the trigger.
Say you live (or are staying in a cabin) in an area where police can't arrive in under 45 minutes. You don't expect anyone else to be home, and hear footsteps in your house. You wouldn't draw your weapon? You investigate (because you know help can't arrive in a timely manner) and find an unarmed 12 year old eating the cheetos he found in your kitchen.
You'd still shoot?
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Old 11-24-2012, 00:07   #225
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Originally Posted by SpringerTGO View Post
Say you live (or are staying in a cabin) in an area where police can't arrive in under 45 minutes. You don't expect anyone else to be home, and hear footsteps in your house. You wouldn't draw your weapon? You investigate (because you know help can't arrive in a timely manner) and find an unarmed 12 year old eating the cheetos he found in your kitchen.
You'd still shoot?
I'm pretty sure he meant if he's confronted by someone, he's going to draw and fire if he's determined that he is justified.

In your scenario its different being in-home, you can have your weapon in hand without charges of brandishing, etc, obviously he would have reversed the steps of determining the threat and drawing, at that point.
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