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Old 11-26-2012, 07:57   #26
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post

... Why can't the omnipotent creator of the universe provide similar evidence?

The evidence of God's existence is all around us, in the air, plants, mountains and even ourselves.

You just have to stop expecting the "proof" to meet your own personal standards.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:12   #27
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
The evidence of God's existence is all around us, in the air, plants, mountains and even ourselves.
All of those things can be explained without resorting to the supernatural. How is that evidence of a supernatural being in general and a specific version of the Christian God in particular?
Quote:
You just have to stop expecting the "proof" to meet your own personal standards.
Why? If God is the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all that exists, providing proof that fits my standards is a simple matter. Why doesn't He produce it?
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:17   #28
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Vic, you believe a magical being is going to come save you from demons and eternal damnation because an archaic book says so with absolutely no proof whatsoever. You're not in a position to question someone else's reasoning.
The majestic being and the ancient Book have made a tremendous positive change in my life. That may not be evidence to you, but I am not going to give it up to become lost again like you.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:08   #29
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
The evidence of God's existence is all around us, in the air, plants, mountains and even ourselves.
No you are incorrect. This is evidence of nature and evolution. We can positively illustrate where all these things come from, how they live, how they have evolved, and how each of us are related to our eco-system. That you cannot understand it makes it no more magical or "Spiritual".
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:13   #30
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
The majestic being and the ancient Book have made a tremendous positive change in my life. That may not be evidence to you, but I am not going to give it up to become lost again like you.
No... YOU have made changes in your life that you consider positive because you have been inspired by an archaic mythology. No magic made the changes, nothing spiritual or supernatural... you did. And that's cool. But the power to do so was always in you... not some mythical being.

I am willing to bet that every single change made in your life was done by you, or by friends, or in spite of enemies, with the support of people who care about you. There was no magic. Now... if you can prove you were missing a foot or something and one magically grew back over night.... I'd be interested in that.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:48   #31
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
The majestic being and the ancient Book have made a tremendous positive change in my life. That may not be evidence to you, but I am not going to give it up to become lost again like you.
But that warm fuzzy feeling you have is only in your head. It's given you a false sense that you have pre-determined place in the universe. A purpose. I understand the draw. I really do, but it's completely illusory. Wanting it to be true does not make it so.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:39   #32
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Originally Posted by me:
In Mark, chapter 13, Jesus speaks of a "tribulation", nation rising against nation, earthquakes, and the coming of false Christs and false prophets, the stars falling from the sky, and the coming of the Son of Man "in the clouds with great power and glory". Then, in verse 30, he tells when this will happen. "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

Looks like the train left the station and no one noticed.
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Response by Brasso:
The word for generation in that verse is better translated as tribe, people, or age.
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Response by me:
Christians have been using that excuse (and many others) to explain why a simple declarative statement means something other than what it says.

Just for fun, please tell us exactly what tribe, people, or age Jesus was referring to.
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Response by Brasso:
Israel.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Please explain what you mean.

Surely you don’t mean that Israel has been in continuous existence as a tribe or people since Jesus’ time. That area has been ruled by the Romans, the Muslims, the Turks and the Brits before the Jews got it back.

Surely you don’t mean the Jews as a people are going to be destroyed.

Exactly what do you mean by "Israel"?
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Old 11-26-2012, 13:36   #33
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By Israel I mean the nation of Israel. The people. They were exiled from the Land and the they came back to the Land, exactly on cue. Just like they did several times before. The punishment was for 2520 years, and exactly on time, they returned. Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear.

Many Christians are also Israel. They just haven't figured it out yet. The Jewish people were given 2520 years of exile. The Norhtern Kingdom 2730 years of exile. The Northern Kingdom hasn't returned yet. But that was also prophecied.

Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-26-2012 at 13:41..
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Old 11-26-2012, 15:12   #34
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Jesus accurately predicted the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the 690 years and He included His prediction for the.end of the world with it.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
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Old 11-26-2012, 15:31   #35
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Brasso,

So, when Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done," you’re saying that, by "generation" he meant "Israel". But then you say, “Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear”.

You also say that many Christians are Israel. So you can’t define “Israel” at all. How convenient for you. You’ve given yourself a totally open-ended timeline.

I have to apologize to anyone who’s following this. I let Brasso distract me with his silly definition of “generation” without asking where he came up with the idea that , in his words, “the word for generation in that verse is better translated as tribe, people, or age”. I strongly suspect I know where he got that, but let’s see what he says.

How about it, Brasso? Care to explain?
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Old 11-26-2012, 15:33   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Jesus accurately predicted the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the 690 years and He included His prediction for the.end of the world with it.
So, if biblical prophecy is so accurate, can you tell me exactly when that will be? Nevermind, the question is rhetorical. I know you can't and I know exactly which passage you will cite to support the fact that you can't know. That's kinda the point. These prophecies are only ever accurate in hindsight when the proper "discernment" can be applied. That's bible speak for reinterpreting the story to fit the history after the fact.
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Old 11-26-2012, 16:09   #37
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How about it, Brasso? Care to explain?
I did explain. I provided a definition for "generation" right out of Strong's Concordance.

I know exactly who Israel is. It's both the Norther Kingdom of Israel (still in exile) and the Southern Kingdom of Judah (back in the Land). The job of the Messiah is to re-establish a 12 tribe Israel. The promise to Abraham was that his descendants, Israel, would inherit the Land as an eternal possession. They go to together. When you say Israel, you can mean either/or/both.

Here's a question. Why are you asking me about this? You neither believe in the Bible nor what I have to say about it.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-26-2012, 16:27   #38
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
Jesus accurately predicted the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of the 690 years and He included His prediction for the.end of the world with it.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Once again, your scriptures don't validate your statement. One might ask if you really believe your spin. The Bible does not always say what you want it to say just because you want it to say it.
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Old 11-26-2012, 16:31   #39
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I did explain. I provided a definition for "generation" right out of Strong's Concordance.

I know exactly who Israel is. It's both the Norther Kingdom of Israel (still in exile) and the Southern Kingdom of Judah (back in the Land). The job of the Messiah is to re-establish a 12 tribe Israel. The promise to Abraham was that his descendants, Israel, would inherit the Land as an eternal possession. They go to together. When you say Israel, you can mean either/or/both.

Here's a question. Why are you asking me about this? You neither believe in the Bible nor what I have to say about it.
So where are the other 10 tribes? When do they come into play?
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Old 11-26-2012, 17:19   #40
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At the second Exodus. It's hard to say the exact year that the Northern Kingdom will come back, as the Northern Kingdom went into exile in stages. But it's prophesied to last 2730 years. The final exodus is supposed to be so great that the exodus from Egypt is forgotten.

Jer 3:12 “Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, O backsliding Yisra’ĕl,’ declares יהוה, ‘I shall not look on you in displeasure, for I am kind,’ declares יהוה, ‘and I do not bear a grudge forever.
Jer 3:13 ‘Only, acknowledge your crookedness, because you have transgressed against יהוה your Elohim, and have scattered your ways to strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed My voice,’ declares יהוה.
Jer 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,” declares יהוה, “for I shall rule over you, and shall take you, one from a city and two from a clan1, and shall bring you to Tsiyon. Footnote: 1See Isa. 27:12.
Jer 3:15 “And I shall give you shepherds according to My heart, and they shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:16 “And it shall be, when you have increased, and shall bear fruit in the land in those days,” declares יהוה, “that they no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of יהוה.’ Neither would it come to heart, nor would they remember it, nor would they visit it, nor would it be made again.
Jer 3:17 “At that time Yerushalayim shall be called the throne of יהוה, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the Name of יהוה, to Yerushalayim, and no longer walk after the stubbornness of their evil heart.
Jer 3:18 “In those days the house of Yehuḏah shall go to the house of Yisra’ĕl, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Jer 16:14 “Therefore see, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when it is no longer said, ‘יהוה lives who brought up the children of Yisra’ĕl from the land of Mitsrayim,’
Jer 16:15 but, ‘יהוה lives who brought up the children of Yisra’ĕl from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I shall bring them back into their land I gave to their fathers.
Jer 16:16 “See, I am sending for many fishermen,” declares יהוה, “and they shall fish them. And after that I shall send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

This would be the passage Messiah is referring to when He calls the Disciples and asks them if they would be fishers of men.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-26-2012 at 17:41..
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Old 11-26-2012, 19:04   #41
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But that warm fuzzy feeling you have is only in your head. It's given you a false sense that you have pre-determined place in the universe. A purpose. I understand the draw. I really do, but it's completely illusory. Wanting it to be true does not make it so.
I don't understand the draw at all. I remember feeling quite relieved when I realized it was all BS and the itinerary was wiped clean of all the silly stuff I was expected to do. Why anyone would really want to have their entire existence mapped out for them and gleefully adhere to someone else's arbitrary rule system is beyond me.

My stepfather has a masters in nuclear science and still believes that radiocarbon dating is flawed enough to be completely unreliable . The man understands the science on about 10 levels higher than I can yet he dismisses the whole concept based on willful adherence to what 1 book says. That's a special kind of nagging, persistent ignorance that I remember myself, and will never miss.

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Old 11-26-2012, 19:16   #42
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Why anyone would really want to have their entire existence mapped out for them and gleefully adhere to someone else's arbitrary rule system is beyond me.
There is a difference between someone else's silly rules and righteous principles of living and knowing the One who is righteous. Maybe that was what was so discouraging for you thinking that those silly rules were pleasing to God.

Jesus didn't think much of a bunch of silly rules either.
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Old 11-26-2012, 21:06   #43
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Posted by Brasso: I provided a definition for "generation" right out of Strong's Concordance.
You posted something, but it wasn't a definition of anything. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that "generation" means what you say it means?

I'm not asking for an interpretation or someone's opinion. Jesus said "generation", not tribe or people or age. You can't just pull a definition out of someone else's writing and substitute it for the words of your "savior".
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:41   #44
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G1074
Mar 13:30 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 thisG3778 generationG1074 shall notG3364 pass,G3928 tillG3360 allG3956 these thingsG5023 be done.G1096


γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

The Aramaic Pes-hitta reads tribe. This is the oldest known manuscript and is directly from Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew and most likely the original language of Mark.

Most people have two thoughts on this. The prophecy He is speaking about is both present and future. He could mean that exact generation, in which the temple would be destroyed, and the future generation who would witness the fig tree (Israel) blooming.

Both are most likely the case as God made several promises that Israel would never pass away. The entire Bible is a history of the promise to Abraham and how that promise is fulfilled.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 06:58   #45
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There are original Aramaic texts (not translations) of what Jesus said? When were they written?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:46   #46
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I have no idea. The Pes-hitta (written that way because of the forum software) is from about 400ad. The Eastern Church claims it's original, but who knows. It's not a translation. It is the oldest known texts.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 13:02   #47
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The Eastern Church claims it's original, but who knows.
In other words, there's no way to verify whether it's authentic or relates in any way to what Jesus meant.

So, we're back to where we started. Jesus said "generation" and not "tribe" or "people" or "age". We know what "generation" means. He was saying that his prophesy would be fulfilled within the life span of some of the people he was speaking to. Spin it any way you want. That’s what he said and folks have been trying to talk their way out of it for going on 2,000 years.
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Old 11-27-2012, 14:22   #48
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Either you're being obtuse on purpose. Or...

Maybe you really believe that Jesus spoke modern english? Or better yet, Victorian English.

"Generation" is a translation from Greek. It has many meanings, one of which is generation, as we think of it.

The oldest text is Aramaic and clearly says tribe, one of the other meanings of the Greek genea.

I've shown this plainly. I'm so sorry that this throws a wrench into your Christianity bashing machine.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 15:02   #49
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"Generation" is a translation from Greek. It has many meanings, one of which is generation, as we think of it.
You keep saying that. Your claim doesn’t mean that Jesus meant anything other than “generation” as we commonly use the word.

Quote:
The oldest text is Aramaic and clearly says tribe, one of the other meanings of the Greek genea.
While some early written records of the words of Jesus may have been in Aramaic, all the evidence I’ve seen indicates that the Gospels were written in Greek. Archeological records demonstrate that Greek remained the common language of the writings of church leaders for hundreds of years.

As you say, "Generation" is a translation from Greek. Possibly you can provide some evidence that early copies of the verses we’re discussing can be translated as something other than “generation” as we normally use it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 15:36   #50
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Possibly you can provide some evidence that early copies of the verses we’re discussing can be translated as something other than “generation” as we normally use it.
I just did.

The Aramaic is the oldest of ALL manuscripts. It's not a translation.

If that's not good enough, then there's nothing more to say. Really, do I need to draw pictures?

Israel hasn't been a nation for thousands of years. How much more needs to be said that He was speaking of the future? 2520 years. 1948 was exactly 2520 years.


And as far as the Greek goes...Just because the oldest ones they found a couple hundred years ago were in Greek doesn't mean they spoke Greek. Very few scholars today believe Greek was the primary language anymore. It is filled with references to Hebrew and Aramaic. It's almost laughable to think they wrote it in Greek. The Disciples were fishermen for the most part. The only writers that could speak Greek were Paul and Luke. Paul studied under Gamliel, the only Rabbi of that period that was allowed to teach his students Greek. He was also the greatest Rabbi of the time. Greek was considered a bastard tongue. Jews, for the most part, didn't speak it. Gamliel was allowed to do so because the Jews saw the need for at least some to speak it.

The official church, and I use that term loosely, for hundreds of years was the RCC. They were Romans. They spoke Greek. No surprise that all of the early church writings were in Greek. They killed all of the early Jewish believers and destroyed anything that remotely smelled Jewish.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-27-2012 at 15:47..
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