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Old 11-26-2012, 20:04   #41
Gunhaver
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
But that warm fuzzy feeling you have is only in your head. It's given you a false sense that you have pre-determined place in the universe. A purpose. I understand the draw. I really do, but it's completely illusory. Wanting it to be true does not make it so.
I don't understand the draw at all. I remember feeling quite relieved when I realized it was all BS and the itinerary was wiped clean of all the silly stuff I was expected to do. Why anyone would really want to have their entire existence mapped out for them and gleefully adhere to someone else's arbitrary rule system is beyond me.

My stepfather has a masters in nuclear science and still believes that radiocarbon dating is flawed enough to be completely unreliable . The man understands the science on about 10 levels higher than I can yet he dismisses the whole concept based on willful adherence to what 1 book says. That's a special kind of nagging, persistent ignorance that I remember myself, and will never miss.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 11-26-2012 at 20:05..
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Old 11-26-2012, 20:16   #42
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Why anyone would really want to have their entire existence mapped out for them and gleefully adhere to someone else's arbitrary rule system is beyond me.
There is a difference between someone else's silly rules and righteous principles of living and knowing the One who is righteous. Maybe that was what was so discouraging for you thinking that those silly rules were pleasing to God.

Jesus didn't think much of a bunch of silly rules either.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

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Old 11-26-2012, 22:06   #43
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Posted by Brasso: I provided a definition for "generation" right out of Strong's Concordance.
You posted something, but it wasn't a definition of anything. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that "generation" means what you say it means?

I'm not asking for an interpretation or someone's opinion. Jesus said "generation", not tribe or people or age. You can't just pull a definition out of someone else's writing and substitute it for the words of your "savior".
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:41   #44
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G1074
Mar 13:30 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 thisG3778 generationG1074 shall notG3364 pass,G3928 tillG3360 allG3956 these thingsG5023 be done.G1096


γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

The Aramaic Pes-hitta reads tribe. This is the oldest known manuscript and is directly from Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew and most likely the original language of Mark.

Most people have two thoughts on this. The prophecy He is speaking about is both present and future. He could mean that exact generation, in which the temple would be destroyed, and the future generation who would witness the fig tree (Israel) blooming.

Both are most likely the case as God made several promises that Israel would never pass away. The entire Bible is a history of the promise to Abraham and how that promise is fulfilled.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:58   #45
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There are original Aramaic texts (not translations) of what Jesus said? When were they written?
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Old 11-27-2012, 13:46   #46
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I have no idea. The Pes-hitta (written that way because of the forum software) is from about 400ad. The Eastern Church claims it's original, but who knows. It's not a translation. It is the oldest known texts.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 11-27-2012, 14:02   #47
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The Eastern Church claims it's original, but who knows.
In other words, there's no way to verify whether it's authentic or relates in any way to what Jesus meant.

So, we're back to where we started. Jesus said "generation" and not "tribe" or "people" or "age". We know what "generation" means. He was saying that his prophesy would be fulfilled within the life span of some of the people he was speaking to. Spin it any way you want. That’s what he said and folks have been trying to talk their way out of it for going on 2,000 years.
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Old 11-27-2012, 15:22   #48
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Either you're being obtuse on purpose. Or...

Maybe you really believe that Jesus spoke modern english? Or better yet, Victorian English.

"Generation" is a translation from Greek. It has many meanings, one of which is generation, as we think of it.

The oldest text is Aramaic and clearly says tribe, one of the other meanings of the Greek genea.

I've shown this plainly. I'm so sorry that this throws a wrench into your Christianity bashing machine.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-27-2012 at 15:27..
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Old 11-27-2012, 16:02   #49
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"Generation" is a translation from Greek. It has many meanings, one of which is generation, as we think of it.
You keep saying that. Your claim doesn’t mean that Jesus meant anything other than “generation” as we commonly use the word.

Quote:
The oldest text is Aramaic and clearly says tribe, one of the other meanings of the Greek genea.
While some early written records of the words of Jesus may have been in Aramaic, all the evidence I’ve seen indicates that the Gospels were written in Greek. Archeological records demonstrate that Greek remained the common language of the writings of church leaders for hundreds of years.

As you say, "Generation" is a translation from Greek. Possibly you can provide some evidence that early copies of the verses we’re discussing can be translated as something other than “generation” as we normally use it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 16:36   #50
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Possibly you can provide some evidence that early copies of the verses we’re discussing can be translated as something other than “generation” as we normally use it.
I just did.

The Aramaic is the oldest of ALL manuscripts. It's not a translation.

If that's not good enough, then there's nothing more to say. Really, do I need to draw pictures?

Israel hasn't been a nation for thousands of years. How much more needs to be said that He was speaking of the future? 2520 years. 1948 was exactly 2520 years.


And as far as the Greek goes...Just because the oldest ones they found a couple hundred years ago were in Greek doesn't mean they spoke Greek. Very few scholars today believe Greek was the primary language anymore. It is filled with references to Hebrew and Aramaic. It's almost laughable to think they wrote it in Greek. The Disciples were fishermen for the most part. The only writers that could speak Greek were Paul and Luke. Paul studied under Gamliel, the only Rabbi of that period that was allowed to teach his students Greek. He was also the greatest Rabbi of the time. Greek was considered a bastard tongue. Jews, for the most part, didn't speak it. Gamliel was allowed to do so because the Jews saw the need for at least some to speak it.

The official church, and I use that term loosely, for hundreds of years was the RCC. They were Romans. They spoke Greek. No surprise that all of the early church writings were in Greek. They killed all of the early Jewish believers and destroyed anything that remotely smelled Jewish.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-27-2012 at 16:47..
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Old 11-27-2012, 17:32   #51
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The Aramaic is the oldest of ALL manuscripts. It's not a translation.
Please provide some evidence of that.

Quote:
Israel hasn't been a nation for thousands of years.
Exactly. So Jesus couldn’t have been talking about Israel. But you said he was talking about Israel. I find these conflicting claims very conflicting.

Quote:
Very few scholars today believe Greek was the primary language anymore.
Please provide some evidence of that.

Quote:
The official church, and I use that term loosely, for hundreds of years was the RCC. They were Romans. They spoke Greek. No surprise that all of the early church writings were in Greek. They killed all of the early Jewish believers and destroyed anything that remotely smelled Jewish.
They killed them all? What a tragedy! No one was left to carry on! Oh, wait. If they were all killed and no one was left …… That means ……

Uhhhh .....
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Old 11-27-2012, 18:14   #52
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You're being an ass on purpose now.

The current nation of Israel is a country with a government and constitution. Over 2000 years ago it was too. In between........not so much. I've already said Israel could be the people or the Land.

Since you have no interest in anything that might go against your preconceived agenda, this is over.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-27-2012 at 18:17..
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:34   #53
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Let me get this straight. You said that by “generation”, Jesus meant Israel. Then you defined Israel.

Quote:
Posted by Brasso:
By Israel I mean the nation of Israel. The people. They were exiled from the Land and the they came back to the Land, exactly on cue. Just like they did several times before. The punishment was for 2520 years, and exactly on time, they returned. Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear.

Many Christians are also Israel. They just haven't figured it out yet.

I've already said Israel could be the people or the Land.
So, what you’re saying is that, when Jesus told his audience, "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done", that he was including in “generation” every Jew who was alive at the time and every Jew and many Christians who would live during the next several thousand years. Or did he mean it would never happen? You said, “Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear”. If that’s the case, what Jesus said meant nothing.

It seems to me that you’ve painted yourself into a corner by defining “generation” in a way that turns Jesus’ words into nonsense. Then you call me an ass and run off.

Excellent debating technique you’ve got there.
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Old 11-27-2012, 23:18   #54
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Don't fight guys. Just take comfort in the fact that, like everyone who has made prophetic predictions based on scriptural interpretation, you're all wrong.
Wow...and you call me a troll.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:16   #55
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So, what you’re saying is that, when Jesus told his audience, "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done", that he was including in “generation” every Jew who was alive at the time and every Jew and many Christians who would live during the next several thousand years.
Yes. THAT IS WHAT I MEANT. THANK GOD. YOU FINALLY GOT IT. BRAVO.

I don't think I could have found another way to say it.

Quote:
You said, “Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear”. If that’s the case, what Jesus said meant nothing.
How so? Both are true. The Land is still there. The people are still there. Do you dispute this? Did I miss the news last night where that chunk of earth disappeared? Has that area ever been anything but Israel? Even before the British Mandate there were more Jews living there than any other ethnic group. It has never had any other recognized constitutional government.
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Last edited by Brasso; 11-28-2012 at 07:21..
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:03   #56
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Wow...and you call me a troll.
Because you are.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:07   #57
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Yes. THAT IS WHAT I MEANT. THANK GOD. YOU FINALLY GOT IT. BRAVO.
But if the land and the people will always be there... then these things will never come to pass. If the generation never ends (The Generation of Israel)... then it's all just bluster.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:49   #58
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But if the land and the people will always be there... then these things will never come to pass. If the generation never ends (The Generation of Israel)... then it's all just bluster.
You beat me to it.

Posted (sort of) by Jesus: "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

Since "this generation" will never pass, "all these things" will never be done.
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Old 11-28-2012, 13:44   #59
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I'm still confused as to what you mean.

"...till all these things be done, this generation will not pass..."

Sound like these things will happen BEFORE this generation passes (which it won't). Contextually of course, this is speaking of the time before He returns, and would inlcude those alive during that time.

And of course, you are both being obtuse again, on purpose. I still fail to understand your lack of intelligence regarding the plain text above. I can only assume you are acting stupid on purpose.

I've already stated that the prophecy is for both the time it was said and for the end times, as is evident by the wording. How can Israel both be destroyed (the temple) and bloom at the same time?


I understand your need to disprove the Bible as you are unwilling to acknowledge that you are currently destined for hell, but why do you keep trying to combine two concepts into a statement about what is going to happen to Israel just before He returns, and who Israel is?
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

Last edited by Brasso; 11-28-2012 at 13:49..
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Old 11-28-2012, 15:16   #60
Japle
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Posted by Brasso:
I'm still confused as to what you mean.

"...till all these things be done, this generation will not pass..."

Sound like these things will happen BEFORE this generation passes (which it won't).
No wonder you’re confused. You’ve got it backwards. The text reads, “this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done”, not “till all these things be done, this generation will not pass”.

It’s funny; you think I’m being stupid on purpose. Believe me when I say I don’t think the same about you!

Try to understand that you’re talking to adults here. You’re trying to tell us that the NT was mistranslated and “generation” should have been written as “Israel, the people and the land, which will never disappear”. As has already been pointed out, that turns Jesus’ statement into gibberish.

And even if you were right, what does that tell us about the NT? If it’s that badly translated on an important statement by Jesus, what else is messed up? Can we trust any of the NT text?
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