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Old 11-27-2012, 06:48   #276
muscogee
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I don't like you too.
I take that as a no.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:58   #277
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Originally Posted by 9jeeps View Post
A drive down your local traffic arterial will convince you there is extra terrestrial life right here on Terra Firma!
A late-night trip to Wal-mart will accomplish the same thing.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:26   #278
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Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
We simply don't know.
257 posts later, we finally have the most accurate answer. I say give NASA another few billion dollars so they can keep guessing.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:44   #279
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
257 posts later, we finally have the most accurate answer. I say give NASA another few billion dollars so they can keep guessing.
However, the real question is are the aliens happy with their HOA?
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:01   #280
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However, the real question is are the aliens happy with their HOA?
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:05   #281
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
257 posts later, we finally have the most accurate answer. I say give NASA another few billion dollars so they can keep guessing.
I would gladly give NASA many billions more so that we can explore the universe in an attempt to answer that question. And even if we don't find that specific answer, we would have still greatly advanced humanity with the other things we learned along the way.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:19   #282
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I would gladly give NASA many billions more so that we can explore the universe in an attempt to answer that question. And even if we don't find that specific answer, we would have still greatly advanced humanity with the other things we learned along the way.
I've asked a few people that share your thinking how they would feel if we actually did find alien life and they got pissed off, came over and wiped us off the map just for being nosy. The answer of course, is always something along the lines of "Well, I didn't really think about it that way".

Maybe it's just me, but my problems and concerns are here on Earth...and no amount of space exploration is going to change any of it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:33   #283
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
I've asked a few people that share your thinking how they would feel if we actually did find alien life and they got pissed off, came over and wiped us off the map just for being nosy. The answer of course, is always something along the lines of "Well, I didn't really think about it that way".
I do tend to agree with this though.....that is assuming we find more intelligent/superior life to ours. Based on the track record on earth, when a more powerful group goes to the lands of a less powerful group it doesn't end well for the less powerful. I can see that as a reasonable possibility elsewhere.



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Maybe it's just me, but my problems and concerns are here on Earth...and no amount of space exploration is going to change any of it.
That is the wrong way of thinking about it. Learning about the universe and science has greatly contributed to this planet. Learning all there is(or as much as possible) about the universe is imo the only real way to 'solve' the issues of humanity.
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Last edited by Altaris; 11-27-2012 at 08:34..
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:59   #284
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I do tend to agree with this though.....that is assuming we find more intelligent/superior life to ours. Based on the track record on earth, when a more powerful group goes to the lands of a less powerful group it doesn't end well for the less powerful. I can see that as a reasonable possibility elsewhere.
And is still a possibility should we stumble upon another species of life somewhere in space.




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That is the wrong way of thinking about it. Learning about the universe and science has greatly contributed to this planet. Learning all there is(or as much as possible) about the universe is imo the only real way to 'solve' the issues of humanity.
That's just called hope. Sure, I wish it was like a fairy-tale too and we found the meaning of life one day while looking through a telescope...but it's just...not likely.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:30   #285
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That's just called hope. Sure, I wish it was like a fairy-tale too and we found the meaning of life one day while looking through a telescope...but it's just...not likely.
I'm not talking about a philosophical 'meaning of life', but actual tangible products and benefits. Space exploration has already tangibly benefited humanity greatly and will only continue to do so.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:41   #286
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I'm not talking about a philosophical 'meaning of life', but actual tangible products and benefits. Space exploration has already tangibly benefited humanity greatly and will only continue to do so.
True, but many of those things that have benefited us happened years ago. I can't even think of the last recent thing that NASA and/or space exploration has given us.

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Old 11-27-2012, 10:02   #287
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Shovels on Mars

Per devildog’s earlier assertion, “...’I say ‘build me a machine that digs holes on Mars from here’ you can't. There's no way to extend the principle of a shovel to this purpose.” Why the hell not? This seems more of an engineering challenge than a physical prohibition of the universe—rather like breaking the sound barrier was. In fact, didn’t at least one of the Viking Mars Landers have a facsimile of a shovel on board?
I was picturing a backhoe that could reach Mars from Earth... it wasn't a very good example I guess. Yes, all of the Mars landers have had some sort of shovel in them.

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I asked once that if a distant galaxy was made of antimatter, would we know it? If memory serves, devildog told me, “No.”
That's right--there would be no way to tell just by looking at it.

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But that we would expect to detect particles of regular matter annihilating particles of antimatter at the boundary of that universe.
Yes, this is also right--if there WERE big pockets of antimatter out there, we'd expect to be able to see the edges because there would be lots of annihilation going on.

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Does this preclude the existence of an antimatter galaxy out there? I think not; but it does reduce the possibility to improbable.
The AMS experiment has excluded the possibility of antimatter galaxies within about 3 billion light years, and by the end of its operational lifetime is expected to exclude the entire universe. So we'll know if there are antimatter galaxies or not within the next ~20 years.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:04   #288
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True, but many of those things that have benefited us happened years ago. I can't even think of the last recent thing that NASA and/or space exploration has given us.
This is from the last 10 years or so.

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A Mars Exploration Rover prototype robot and an autonomous stair-climbing robot created at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory have been further developed into commercial tactical reconnaissance robots that are being used in Afghanistan and Iraq to help U.S. troops clear caves and bunkers, search buildings, cross live antipersonnel mine fields, and deal with the dangers posed by improvised explosive devices. Several systems have been damaged or completely destroyed in seeking out improvised explosive devices in Iraq, but have been credited with saving lives in doing so
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Supercomputer experts from Ames Research Center and engineers from Johnson Space Center teamed up with famed cardiologist Dr. Michael DeBakey to develop a ventricular assist device that functions as a “bridge to heart transplant” by pumping blood throughout the body to keep critically ill patients alive until a donor heart is available. The consortium analyzed blood flow through the battery powered heart pump using NASA supercomputers and the same methodologies used to analyze fuel and oxidizer flow through rocket engines. NASA patented the heart pump

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Old 11-27-2012, 10:09   #289
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I understand about our sun. I guess what I meant was, that if a single star can possess the necessary mass to collapse into a singularity, how can the mass of everything else not have collapsed into a singularity?
It's not about mass, it's about density.

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How many kinds of singularities--i.e., black holes--are there, that we know of?
Only one--black holes (we think) can't have "kinds." They only have a few classical properties (mass, charge, angular momentum) and don't have further information content. Look up the "no-hair" theorem.

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Old 11-27-2012, 10:11   #290
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:28   #291
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Originally Posted by tantrix View Post
True, but many of those things that have benefited us happened years ago. I can't even think of the last recent thing that NASA and/or space exploration has given us.
How about this for an example: a system designed for pumping fuel into a rocket engine when applied to fire suppression...
One series of tests using empty houses at Vandenberg Air Force Base compared an HMA system with a 20-gallon-per-minute, 1,400 pound-per-square-inch (psi) discharge capability (at the pump) versus a standard 100-gallon-per-minute, 125 psi standard hand line—the kind that typically takes a few firemen to control. The standard line extinguished a set fire in a living room in 1 minute and 45 seconds using 220 gallons of water. The HMA system extinguished an identical fire in 17.3 seconds using 13.6 gallons—with a hose requiring only one person to manage.
-ArtificialGrape

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:37   #292
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
1) That's right--there would be no way to tell just by looking at it.

2) Yes, this is also right--if there WERE big pockets of antimatter out there, we'd expect to be able to see the edges because there would be lots of annihilation going on.

3) The AMS experiment has excluded the possibility of antimatter galaxies within about 3 billion light years, and by the end of its operational lifetime is expected to exclude the entire universe. So we'll know if there are antimatter galaxies or not within the next ~20 years.

Thanks for replying!

1) I may well deserve to be spanked for this, but if, just if, time were flowing backwards in a distant galaxy, could we determine that? How?

2) Has antimatter been excluded as the possible cause of the occasional gamma ray bursts we detect out there?

3) That speculation makes sense since the further out we look into space, the further back we see into time, and all the antimatter should have been pretty much annihilated in the oldest of stomping grounds.

--Ray
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:47   #293
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World governments have been hiding the reality of extra-terrestrial life for decades now. ET life is old news. The whole SETI program is a joke as aliens have made themselves known for a long time.

Really now, welcome to the 21st century.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:51   #294
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
1) It's not about mass, it's about density.

Only one--black holes (we think) can't have "kinds." They only have a few classical properties (mass, charge, angular momentum)...

2) ...and don't have further information content. Look up the "no-hair" theorem.

1) Don't you mean density?

2) I suppose there can't be any direct information, since the gizmo itself is unobservable.

But I keep reading and hearing about mini black holes, quantum singularities, primordial black holes formed in the Big Bang. I thought that perhaps, like stars, there was m ore than one variety, or subclass.

Carl Sagan wrote that black holes slip through a self-generated crack in the space-time continuum, and vanish from this universe. Do you hold with that?

I'll Google "no hair theorem"...



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Old 11-27-2012, 11:55   #295
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World governments have been hiding the reality of extra-terrestrial life for decades now. ET life is old news. The whole SETI program is a joke as aliens have made themselves known for a long time.

Really now, welcome to the 21st century.
PW, is that you?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:15   #296
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
A universe full of matter can be open (expand forever), closed (expand, stop, collapse (Big Crunch)), or flat (expand, slow down, but never quite stop).

The evidence now supports that our universe is a flat universe. Lawrence Krass' original 2009 "A Universe from Nothing" lecture has been pulled down from YouTube, but he followed it up with a book, and here is a later lecture on it (not sure why the player is not embedding right now).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CO&h...&v=YUe0_4rdj0U

-ArtificialGrape

Thanks! I'll look into this...

While I've got you here, I recall from Carl Sagan's Cosmos, that he felt that it may just be possible, that if you could survive the journey past the event horizon, and pass down into the gravity well of a black hole, that you might emerge out the other side, somewhere else in space, and somewhen else in time... Do you think that's possible?

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:18   #297
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World governments have been hiding the reality of extra-terrestrial life for decades now. ET life is old news. The whole SETI program is a joke as aliens have made themselves known for a long time.

Really now, welcome to the 21st century.

Listen, man, I own the X Files collection... Who do you think you're dealing with here?

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Old 11-27-2012, 13:27   #298
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DD,

When I read your post on the Mars/shovel thing I too did not think you meant a shovel from here to there...
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Old 11-27-2012, 13:30   #299
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DD,

When I read your post on the Mars/shovel thing I too did not think you meant a shovel from here to there...
Ok, ok! It was a terrible example!

I liked the previous one a lot better, but the guy I was responding to seemed to have ignored it. I'll repeat it here, I guess:

If I ask you to build a speaker that will let me hear your voice from 100 meters away, that's something we know how to do.

If I then ask for a speaker that will let me hear your voice from 10 miles away... well, that's an engineering challenge, but fundamentally all it would take is a really really big speaker and some good waveguide design.

If I ask for a speaker that will let me hear you on the Moon... it can't be done. Sound physically does not work that way. No amount of can-do attitude can make it happen.

Some limitations are physics. Some are engineering. Sometimes we're confused about which is which. But there *are* some fundamental physics limitations that cannot be overcome simply by building better machines.
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Old 11-27-2012, 17:57   #300
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Ok, ok! It was a terrible example!

I liked the previous one a lot better, but the guy I was responding to seemed to have ignored it. I'll repeat it here, I guess:

If I ask you to build a speaker that will let me hear your voice from 100 meters away, that's something we know how to do.

If I then ask for a speaker that will let me hear your voice from 10 miles away... well, that's an engineering challenge, but fundamentally all it would take is a really really big speaker and some good waveguide design.

If I ask for a speaker that will let me hear you on the Moon... it can't be done. Sound physically does not work that way. No amount of can-do attitude can make it happen.

Some limitations are physics. Some are engineering. Sometimes we're confused about which is which. But there *are* some fundamental physics limitations that cannot be overcome simply by building better machines.
what if.....

we design a speaker to vibrate the surface of the moon so you could "hear" through your feet? and, instead of wires, we use a "laser" (Dr. Evil quotes tyvm) to transfer the signal from earth to the moon. should only have a little over a second and a half delay....

sorry, just being a smart ass! haha
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