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Old 11-27-2012, 22:09   #121
4949shooter
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I agree with you. We need a combination of energy AND penetration. One or the other generally won't be enough.

I also agree that for large animals (bear) we need a deep penetrating hollowpoint. That is why I carry XTP's in the woods as a backup to my SG or rifle. I really have gotten to like the Black Talons though. The expansion characteristics in the video I posted are superb. Yes, I know it wasn't flesh, but the expansion this bullet gives in water is a good example of what it may be capable of. If I get to the gun show this weekend I will keep my eye out for some. I wish Winchester still produced the 10mm Ranger round. That would be nice. Perhaps a call or email to Winchester is in order. It sure can't hurt, especially if we can convince them the 10mm is back on the rise and there will be a demand for factory ammo.

I will disagree on one point you made. The data for 10mm shootings is lacking. I personally would like to see more data, with the different loadings / bullets / power levels. More data can only benefit the 10mm and shooting community in general.

Thanks for the dialogue.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:33   #122
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Bunch of data right here in The 10 Ring.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1373461

Deer are very similar to humans as per bullet/load performance. Although i'd also like to see more data specific to 10mm on humans, but, the data from .40 is virtually exactly the same, but with light loads.
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Old 10-10-2013, 20:23   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockophile View Post
This thread is ridiculous.
Ah...thankfully someone finally said it.

I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; 10-10-2013 at 20:33..
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Old 10-10-2013, 20:52   #124
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This thread only seems ridiculous if you don't understand it.

Shower us with your wisdom, Bongo Boy.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:55   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo Boy View Post
I'll stick to worrying about whether I see him first and even get the chance to respond at all, even if with a dinner plate or my car keys. That should cover about 99.99999% of my personal defense issues.

I'm 100% confident that whether I'm packing 230gr FMJs or 185 gr Gold Dots, my chances of survival have little to do with whether I'm even carrying or not. Did I hear the guy with the 2x4 come up behind me in time to get myself out of the way? Nope. But I'm packin' my 10mm loaded for bear, just the same.
lots of wisdom in these 2 paragraphs... situational awareness can negate the 'over-penetration' "problem".
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:23   #126
vaquero aleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockBaby View Post
JB:

I've looked at 10mm ammo for awhile now, and, it looks like you loose too much velocity for the bullet weight, once the bullets get over 180 grains. Browning originally wanted a 200 grain 45 ACP bullet, going something like 1000 fps, or more. Maybe he also saw the reduction in bullet speed not being compensated, or benefited from the increase in bullet weight.

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

In other words, if you look at ballistic tables long enough, and gello results, you sort of see points where, as much as I love bullet weight, the increase in weight doesn't result in much benefit, except higher recoil. There hits a point where you just need a bigger case, not higher pressure.

You sort of hit a wall, where the increased bullet weight requires a speed increase the case and powder can't provide, or, the bullet needs to have a thicker jacket to limit the expansion speed, or a harder core, or premium design.

I'm really not sure much is gained increasing bullet weight with DT ammo going from the above 180 grain bullets.

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

In 45 ACP, at least with Gold Dots, it seems pretty clear the 230 grain both expands more, and penetrates deeper. However,
With 45 Super max velocity for the 230's is about 1100 fps, and, 1200 fps for the 200's, and, I don't have gello results...It is possible to push the 185's to 1350 fps, and, they might well both penetrate, and expand more then at 1225,...

GB

Above are Buffalobore factory offerings in 45 Super.
The handle was sticking out so I thought that I would pull on it...

All of this would be great, if these loads actually achieved their listed velocity. Check out "ammo test" on youtube for verification.
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