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Old 11-23-2012, 14:12   #26
ArtificialGrape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packsaddle View Post
for christians, ethics are rooted in the holy bible.

for atheists, ethics are just a construct of an evolved human brain, the chance product of random particles bouncing around haphazardly in a purposeless environment.

one is eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain.

the other is relative, subject to revision based on society's whims.

for example, christians will always believe it is wrong to kill a 5 year old with downs syndrome.
Unless of course that child with downs strikes or curses a parent in which case they should be put to death -- Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9

And a few other examples of your "eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain" morality:
  • Beating a slave to the extent that they recover in 2 days (it's your right since they're your property) -- Exodus 21:20
  • Homosexuals should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:13
  • Adulterers should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:10
  • Witches should be put to death -- Exodus 22:17
  • Fortunetellers should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:27
  • Nonbelievers should be put to death -- Chronicles 15:13
  • A woman who was not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death on her father's doorstep -- Deuteronomy 22:13-21
  • Rape victims (if betrothed and raped in town and not heard screaming) should be put to death -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Gotta love the classics.

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Old 11-24-2012, 08:04   #27
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
What if God orders that the child die? Along with his parents, all other relatives and a collection of neighbors, is it still wrong in that instance? What if the child insults his parents?
Jesus is God. Jesus said that if any harm one of these little ones (children), it would be better that they have a millstone tied around their neck and be cast into the sea.

You seem to be thinking of Marxism (or maybe Islam). The Party has a track record of murdering children if they are deemed "counterrevolutionary", and that "his parents, all other relatives and a collection of neighbors" be hauled off in cattle cars to a remote, brutal gulag, to die of starvation, overwork, beatings, being shot, or exposure to the elements.
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Old 11-24-2012, 17:10   #28
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Jesus is God. Jesus said that if any harm one of these little ones (children), it would be better that they have a millstone tied around their neck and be cast into the sea.
If Jesus is God, isn't it equally true that Jesus ordered the slaughter of the Canaanites?
Quote:
You seem to be thinking of Marxism (or maybe Islam). The Party has a track record of murdering children if they are deemed "counterrevolutionary", and that "his parents, all other relatives and a collection of neighbors" be hauled off in cattle cars to a remote, brutal gulag, to die of starvation, overwork, beatings, being shot, or exposure to the elements.
Wrong, you're the one who's obsessed with Marxism and Islam, not me.
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Old 11-24-2012, 17:50   #29
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Originally Posted by packsaddle View Post
it all depends on what you consider ethical.

for christians, ethics are rooted in the holy bible.

for atheists, ethics are just a construct of an evolved human brain, the chance product of random particles bouncing around haphazardly in a purposeless environment.

one is eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain.

the other is relative, subject to revision based on society's whims.

for example, christians will always believe it is wrong to kill a 5 year old with downs syndrome.

atheists, however, will say that someday it may be okay to kill a 5 year old with downs syndrome if society collectively decides it is okay (e.g. eugenics).

choose your side wisely.
The above post is real dumb.

Last edited by juggy4711; 11-24-2012 at 17:51..
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:29   #30
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If Jesus is God, isn't it equally true that Jesus ordered the slaughter of the Canaanites?
Wrong, you're the one who's obsessed with Marxism and Islam, not me.
God judged certain ancient sinners, and you, in your arrogance, second-guess Him.

You and your fellow-traveler leftists defend Marxism and Islam, and then lie that you don't.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:38   #31
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The above post is real dumb.
That's your (foolish) opinion, and you are entitled to it.

But you know something that's really dumb? The unthinkably deep debt-hole that Leftists have dug us, and our children and their children, into. The author of, "After America, Get Ready For Armageddon", calls it, "The Stupidity of Broke".
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Old 11-26-2012, 20:25   #32
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
That's your (foolish) opinion, and you are entitled to it.

But you know something that's really dumb? The unthinkably deep debt-hole that Leftists have dug us, and our children and their children, into. The author of, "After America, Get Ready For Armageddon", calls it, "The Stupidity of Broke".
Not sure what the second part of your post has to do with the post I quoted but yes the out of control spending is a terrible thing.

As for the first part, any chance you could cite any atheist ever claiming that "ethics are just a construct of an evolved human brain, the chance product of random particles bouncing around haphazardly in a purposeless environment"?

I seriously doubt you can as I know of no atheists that believe particles bounce around at random in a purposeless environment. And as for eugenics, I'm sure you can find a few assclowns that might think that way, but they would be a vast minority much like Christians that believe it is ok to murder abortion doctors. So yeah it was real dumb.

Last edited by juggy4711; 11-26-2012 at 20:26..
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Old 11-26-2012, 22:45   #33
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
God judged certain ancient sinners, and you, in your arrogance, second-guess Him.
I tend to do that with anyone who commands or participates in genocide. I'll note that you're ok with it, as long as the right person passes on the order.
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You and your fellow-traveler leftists defend Marxism and Islam, and then lie that you don't.
I don't do either of those things, except in the context of that whole freedom of religion thing you so despise. Of course, in your fevered imagination, I'm sure that's twisted into something completely different.
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Old 11-27-2012, 13:42   #34
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I don't do either of those things (support Marxism or Islam), except in the context of that whole freedom of religion thing you so despise.
Translation: "Animal Mother supports Marxism and Islam".
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Old 11-27-2012, 14:28   #35
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Translation: "Animal Mother supports Marxism and Islam".
You kinda beat around the bush most of the time and just spew propaganda. But this statement right here is very telling. Do you believe that freedom of religion is supporting terrorism? One of the KEY founding ideals of this nation is supporting terrorism?

Because I might be inclined to agree with you, but you wouldn't like the measures I'd be willing to take to safeguard this nation from Islam. I would ban all religion... including yours. It can be something you do in your home... but it stays there. No churches, no mosques, nothing. perhaps freedom of religion in this nation is supporting terrorism. Maybe it's time we do away with religion. All of it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 14:58   #36
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It seems that leftist trolls often use several different sockpuppet names in their attacks on conservative websites. And some of them actually get paid to do their character assassinations and spread their anti-American lies. In the beginning, they are given leftist talking-points to be disseminated. Later, they can usually manage their enemy propaganda and disinformation on their own.

Lefty websites typically don't tolerate freedom of speech: say something conservative Christian there and you get banned right away.
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Old 11-27-2012, 15:08   #37
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
It seems that leftist trolls often use several different sockpuppet names in their attacks on conservative websites. And some of them actually get paid to do their character assassinations and spread their anti-American lies. In the beginning, they are given leftist talking-points to be disseminated. Later, they can usually manage their enemy propaganda and disinformation on their own.

Lefty websites typically don't tolerate freedom of speech: say something conservative Christian there and you get banned right away.
Awesome can you give us a few links? Sounds like a place I'd like to frequent and financially support. Anything you hate has to be good for the nation and mankind in general.
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Old 11-27-2012, 15:28   #38
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
Translation: "Animal Mother supports Marxism and Islam".
Now that you've clearly stated you oppose the First Amendment, what other parts of the Bill of Rights do you find objectionable?
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Old 11-27-2012, 17:15   #39
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Originally Posted by eracer View Post
I'm more concerned about the breakdown in morals among the religious.

Christian leaders smoking meth and having sexual affairs, all while preaching the horrors of such things, Catholic priests buggering young boys, Muslim leaders advocating violence against innocent civilians...

The need (or desire) for personal freedom should never be confused with immorality.

And when the supposedly 'moral' leaders stray so far, what does that tell young people about integrity? That 'sin' is God's great test?

Also, the thought that capitalism is somehow 'moral' is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a long, long time.
The victims of a "con man" are called "marks".

The victims of a "religious leader" are called "the faithful"

The only difference between a "religious leader" and a "con man" is that a "religious leader" may, I repeat MAY actually believe that the superstitious twaddle he peddles to his mark/faithful victims is the literal truth. Although, he can never prove that his particular brand of superstitious twaddle is in fact, true.

"You must blindly accept what I say is the truth "on faith". And oh by the way, you need to tithe me 10% of your income because I say God insists that you do so. So pay up, sucka. "

Bah. Humbug.

A con man knows he is peddling lies to his marks.

However, a significant percentage of "religious leaders" know full well that the superstitious twaddle they peddle is, in fact, just superstitious twaddle.

Such "religious leaders" are in fact, "con men", are probably those who are most often caught in the act of "do as I say, not as I do".


Last edited by Comrade Bork; 11-27-2012 at 17:20..
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:23   #40
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Now that you've clearly stated you oppose the First Amendment...
...actually, opposing Islam as I do, is NOT the same as opposing the First Amendment. Only an America-hating Marxist-Islamosupremacist like you would think so.

You're suggesting that our First Amendment demands that we allow Islamic "worship" here in our homeland. But Islamic "worship" involves killing Jews.

Worldwide, devout Muslims support jihad, especially against Israel. Hamas Muslims just broadcast on their official Al-Aqsa TV station, "Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah".

Early, pre-political-correctness Americans (and conservatives, especially the Christian kind, to this day) would never agree with you that our Constitution requires us to derive light and power from Lucifer (which is what your Islamofascist interpretation of our First Amendment amounts to).
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:22   #41
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...actually, opposing Islam as I do, is NOT the same as opposing the First Amendment. Only an America-hating Marxist-Islamosupremacist like you would think so.

You're suggesting that our First Amendment demands that we allow Islamic "worship" here in our homeland. But Islamic "worship" involves killing Jews.

Worldwide, devout Muslims support jihad, especially against Israel. Hamas Muslims just broadcast on their official Al-Aqsa TV station, "Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah".
And people in Israel love killing muslims. What's your point. They've been fighting forever. People have the right to believe as they see fit in this nation as this nation at it's core is Atheist (without belief). Your refusal to support it simply proves how Anti-American you are.

Quote:
Early, pre-political-correctness Americans (and conservatives, especially the Christian kind, to this day) would never agree with you that our Constitution requires us to derive light and power from Lucifer (which is what your Islamofascist interpretation of our First Amendment amounts to).
Our Founders believed in religious freedom for all and that America as a nation should have no religious affiliation. America is Atheist big boy... suck it.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 11-28-2012 at 09:23..
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Old 11-28-2012, 13:31   #42
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Originally Posted by snowbird View Post
...actually, opposing Islam as I do, is NOT the same as opposing the First Amendment.
Yes, it does.
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Only an America-hating Marxist-Islamosupremacist like you would think so.
There's those delusions again.
Quote:
You're suggesting that our First Amendment demands that we allow Islamic "worship" here in our homeland.
Shall we review the wording of the amendment together?
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Quote:
But Islamic "worship" involves killing Jews.
No, it doesn't, any more than Jewish "worship" involves killing Canaanites or Christian "worship" involves burning witches.
Quote:
Worldwide, devout Muslims support jihad, especially against Israel.
Some do, the vast majority do not.
Quote:
Hamas Muslims just broadcast on their official Al-Aqsa TV station, "Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah".
Hamas is a terrorist organization, not an Islamic authority.
Quote:
Early, pre-political-correctness Americans (and conservatives, especially the Christian kind, to this day) would never agree with you that our Constitution requires us to derive light and power from Lucifer (which is what your Islamofascist interpretation of our First Amendment amounts to).
And we're back to your delusions.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:52   #43
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No, it doesn't, any more than Jewish "worship" involves killing Canaanites or Christian "worship" involves burning witches.
Some do, the vast majority do not.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, not an Islamic authority.
And we're back to your delusions.
Yes, Hamas is terrorist. But also yes, Hamas is Islamic. Furthermore, Hamas is approved by CAIR, which US dhimmis claim is a "civil rights" organization, as if our First amendment mandates Islamic terrorism.

How many witches have Christians burned in the last 3 centuries? (Zero) How many Canaanites have Jews killed in the last 3 millenia? (Zero) But Muslims, acting in accordance with their 'religion', are murdering folks daily, right now.

Question: if "the vast majority of Muslims" are against jihad and murder, how come...

-there are so many Muslim suicide bombers?
-those 54 Christians and Druze were just murdered by Muslims?
-nearly 100 Shiites in Iraq were just murdered by Sunni Muslims?
-Muslims persecute and murder Buddhists in south Thailand daily?
-there have been 20,008 deadly Muslim attacks just since 9/11/01?

FYI, the 20,00th Muslim terror attack involved the stabbing and dismemberment of a Jewish woman in her Iranian home by Muslims intent on expanding their mosque where her home was.

Our Founding fathers couldn't imagine leftist traitor Americans would someday be letting jihad colonists infiltrate, occupy, and overthrow our free society in the name of the First Amendment.
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Old 11-30-2012, 13:04   #44
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Unless of course that child with downs strikes or curses a parent in which case they should be put to death -- Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9


And a few other examples of your "eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain" morality:
  • Beating a slave to the extent that they recover in 2 days (it's your right since they're your property) -- Exodus 21:20
  • Homosexuals should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:13
  • Adulterers should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:10
  • Witches should be put to death -- Exodus 22:17
  • Fortunetellers should be put to death -- Leviticus 20:27
  • Nonbelievers should be put to death -- Chronicles 15:13
  • A woman who was not a virgin on her wedding night should be stoned to death on her father's doorstep -- Deuteronomy 22:13-21
  • Rape victims (if betrothed and raped in town and not heard screaming) should be put to death -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Gotta love the classics.

-ArtificialGrape
Let's break this argument down real quick.

I do like your examples... They are good. But they all share one fatal flaw... All of them come out of the Old Testament. I.E. before Jesus.

The main premise of Christianity is that Jesus was sent to us and sacrificed for us so that we would not have to die for our own sins (John 3:16). In fact, one of the most memorable lines from Jesus was "let ye who is without sin cast the first stone" when addressing a group of men about to stone to death an accused prostitute. So, not only are we not to die for our sins, but we are also not to judge others (lest we blaspheme and proclaim ourselves "as perfect as" God).

Does that mean that all killing is wrong? I don't believe so. I believe there is a distinction between "killing" and "murder". In other words, all murder involves killing, but not all killing involves murder. If you or I were to kill somebody in defense of ourselves or another person, why would anybody consider that wrong? I'm pretty sure that you (and I'm DAMN sure that I) do not find any joy in taking the life of another, but we have to do what must be done to defend ourselves or others. And the same goes for society and the use of capital punishment.

The Bible has many practices in it that became antiquated when Jesus was given up for us. If not, Sunday Mass would still involve animal sacrifice. However, the "big picture" messages, even from the Old Testament, still apply (e.g. The Ten Commandments).
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Old 11-30-2012, 13:50   #45
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Let's break this argument down real quick.

I do like your examples... They are good. But they all share one fatal flaw... All of them come out of the Old Testament. I.E. before Jesus.
I appreciate your response as it supports my position. My examples are from the OT for a reason. Packsaddle asserted that biblical morality is "eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain."

My examples and your confirmation show that is not the case.

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Old 11-30-2012, 14:38   #46
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
I appreciate your response as it supports my position. My examples are from the OT for a reason. Packsaddle asserted that biblical morality is "eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain."

My examples and your confirmation show that is not the case.

-ArtificialGrape
Thanks.

I'd have to say that you are both right, and both wrong in different ways. All of those ways are related to semantics.
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Old 11-30-2012, 20:49   #47
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My examples are from the OT for a reason.
Your examples are from the Holy Bible, a book you openly reject.

Do you believe what Mark and Matthew wrote about the death of Jesus and His resurrection?

Of course not.

So why do you believe what Moses wrote about witches, adulterers, and fortune tellers?

The bottom line is you don't believe what Moses wrote.

Therefore, since you don't believe what Moses wrote, yet use them as examples as if they are true, then your argument is ultimately self-defeating and your credibility is diminshed.
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Old 11-30-2012, 20:57   #48
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Read de Toqueville's view on how the USA would do when Christianity was no longer part of the culture
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Old 11-30-2012, 21:07   #49
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Originally Posted by packsaddle View Post
Your examples are from the Holy Bible, a book you openly reject.

Do you believe what Mark and Matthew wrote about the death of Jesus and His resurrection?

Of course not.

So why do you believe what Moses wrote about witches, adulterers, and fortune tellers?

The bottom line is you don't believe what Moses wrote.

Therefore, since you don't believe what Moses wrote, yet use them as examples as if they are true, then your argument is ultimately self-defeating and your credibility is diminshed.
Of course I reject the Bible, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be used to demonstrate the absurdity of your argument.

You claim the morality of the Bible to be "eternal, unchanging, necessary, universal, and certain". You, to my knowledge, are not a proponent of slavery, nor am I aware that you advocate imposing death in the situations listed above.

I don't have to believe in the Bible to show that the morality of the Old Testament is no longer the morality of today. Therefore it is obviously not eternal and unchanging.

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 11-30-2012, 21:46   #50
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Yes, Hamas is terrorist. But also yes, Hamas is Islamic. Furthermore, Hamas is approved by CAIR, which US dhimmis claim is a "civil rights" organization, as if our First amendment mandates Islamic terrorism.
You start off in the realm of reality, but then you veer off into delusion again. Let's try and see if you can comprehend a counter-example: "The IRA is terrorist. But also yes, the IRA is Catholic." Do we therefore condemn all Catholics or Catholicism in general?
Quote:
How many witches have Christians burned in the last 3 centuries? (Zero)
Perhaps, they find other ways to kills them now.
Quote:
How many Canaanites have Jews killed in the last 3 millenia? (Zero)
Your argument is that because some Chirstians and Jews don't follow the commands of the Bible, it's all good?
Quote:
But Muslims, acting in accordance with their 'religion', are murdering folks daily, right now.
For every Muslim who would say that these killings are part of their religion, there are 10 who say otherwise. Why do you choose to believe the small minority? In the case of honor killings, they long predate Islam, so how can they be a result of it?
Quote:
Question: if "the vast majority of Muslims" are against jihad and murder, how come...

-there are so many Muslim suicide bombers?
-those 54 Christians and Druze were just murdered by Muslims?
-nearly 100 Shiites in Iraq were just murdered by Sunni Muslims?
-Muslims persecute and murder Buddhists in south Thailand daily?
-there have been 20,008 deadly Muslim attacks just since 9/11/01?
For the same reason there are still gangs and murder in America, despite most Americans being against them. Presumably, you don't approve of the Mafia, yet it still exists in the US. Does that mean it is secretly something you approve of?
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Our Founding fathers couldn't imagine leftist traitor Americans would someday be letting jihad colonists infiltrate, occupy, and overthrow our free society in the name of the First Amendment.
That sounds dangerously like the arguments put forth by anti-2nd amendment proponents who claims that our Founding Fathers couldn't imagine firearms with detachable 100 round magazines. Is that also a position you support?
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