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Old 12-02-2012, 20:19   #26
ArrowJ
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
The most reasonable compromise would be for Green to acknowledge that after pills don't cause abortion. They prevent implantation. I know he's been informed of that fact many times and he could ask a professional's opinion if he really wanted to know. This is about the right to remain ignorant and have it adversely affect employees.
It is my understanding that this prevention of the fertilized egg from implanting Is the reason it is considered abortive. If the egg has been fertilized life has begun (from the perspective of most pro life supporters). Of course, there are those now saying that these pills do not prevent implantation, but delay ovulation. The reading I did left me confused. Does the medical community not know how this medication works? Bottom line, if there is a chance of preventing implantation after the egg is fertilized it would be considered abortive.
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:34   #27
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I have a better plan. Lets have a boycott and put the company out of business so the boss can't push his religious nonsense on them. Of course that will mean they are out of work and won't have health insurance but it will be worth it because we showed them, didn't we. Great plan.

The other alternative is simply don't provide health insurance. Hire more part time people and reduce most of your full-timers to part-time. You don't even have to provide full time salaried employees with health insurance. You can simply pay the fine and let them pay for their own at the government run health insurance exchange out of their own pocket. There are enough unemployed in this economy who would rather not be a drain on this country that I'm sure he could fill all the positions.

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Yes! That's the plan we're going with. If Green wants to make a big stink about his faith over someone else's healthcare then he'll have to do it at the risk of his business. This twerp is actually claiming some authority over what a health benefit package covers and he's using his religion to do it. I wonder if he thinks his employee's salaries are not to be used to buy unchristian material since it's him paying the salaries after all.

If there are enough people that are sick of hearing this self righteous BS and can hurt his business enough by not shopping there then he'll have to either apologize and cave or let the place go under. Then it can be bought by someone that doesn't care about birth control or absorbed by it's competitors. End result is that less uptight individuals end up running the show and everybody is happier.
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:48   #28
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Yes! That's the plan we're going with. If Green wants to make a big stink about his faith over someone else's healthcare then he'll have to do it at the risk of his business. This twerp is actually claiming some authority over what a health benefit package covers and he's using his religion to do it. I wonder if he thinks his employee's salaries are not to be used to buy unchristian material since it's him paying the salaries after all.

If there are enough people that are sick of hearing this self righteous BS and can hurt his business enough by not shopping there then he'll have to either apologize and cave or let the place go under. Then it can be bought by someone that doesn't care about birth control or absorbed by it's competitors. End result is that less uptight individuals end up running the show and everybody is happier.

GOVERNMENT
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:08   #29
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It is my understanding that this prevention of the fertilized egg from implanting Is the reason it is considered abortive. If the egg has been fertilized life has begun (from the perspective of most pro life supporters). Of course, there are those now saying that these pills do not prevent implantation, but delay ovulation. The reading I did left me confused. Does the medical community not know how this medication works? Bottom line, if there is a chance of preventing implantation after the egg is fertilized it would be considered abortive.
Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.

Even if it did oust an implanted egg it's still not doing anything that women's bodies don't automatically do all the time.

This is basically the memo Green sent to his employees,

So it's OK for eggs to not be naturally fertilized and it's OK to chemically prevent fertilized. It's OK for eggs to not be naturally implanted but not OK to chemically prevent implantation. And it's OK for the egg to naturally leave implantation but not OK to remove an implanted egg.

That's the kind of stuff he decides for them with the bible as his guide. I'm betting most of his workers wanted more of an employer than a pastor.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:31   #30
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He doesn't understand what the morning after pill does. It prevents pregnancy, it doesn't terminate a pregnancy.
I disagree with most of his beliefs but I respect that he's fighting to run his own company the way he wants to. Good for him.
A fine point.... The man believes human life begins at CONCEPTION the moment the sperm enters the egg which usually takes place in the fallopian tubes, then the zygote travels on into the uterus, IMPLANTATION is that zygote (human life) attaching to the uterus to grow, so the morning after pill by preventing implantation of a zygote causes a human life to be terminated or in other words "aborted", so he IS dead on in his beliefs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:31   #31
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Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.
Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.

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That's the kind of stuff he decides for them with the bible as his guide..
Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:37   #32
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Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.



Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
That sort of freedom is a frightening concept for some people. It requires they take responsibility for themselves.

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Last edited by happyguy; 12-02-2012 at 21:38..
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:39   #33
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Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.
Wrong, wrong wrong-
Birth control pills work by interfering with the natural hormonal cycle of a woman, preventing the ripening and release of an ovum. Which is why women with a problem of developing ovarian cysts caused by failure to release ovums are prescribed birth control pills.

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-d...rol-pills-work
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:41   #34
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Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.
My question is why do they believe this? It seems to be a relatively recent development among the religious outside of the Catholic Church. What's the scriptural basis for such a position?
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Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
What if he decides not to cover genetic diseases because they're God's will?
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:45   #35
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Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
Given the pay that most of his employees make, which hovers around minimum wage, that health insurance coverage could mean the difference between having them and not having them. Nobody in their right mind can dispute the argument that a tax dollar spent on birth control is far better than another mouth for the taxpayer to feed.

And as I said previously, he pays for the health plan that the employee earns as part of their compensation. To expect to have any degree of control over the care provided is like having employee conduct rules for how the money one earns from him can be spent. He pays the payroll, employees spend their money how they like. He pays the healthcare, the employees use the coverage as they like.

Maybe he wants special consideration from the law based on his religious beliefs so he can make sure none of his employees use their paychecks at the titty bar or the casino. He paid those salaries after all.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:58   #36
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Wrong, wrong wrong-
Birth control pills work by interfering with the natural hormonal cycle of a woman, preventing the ripening and release of an ovum. Which is why women with a problem of developing ovarian cysts caused by failure to release ovums are prescribed birth control pills.

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-d...rol-pills-work
There are ingredients in many forms that prevent ovulation and implantation. Some only cover one or the other. I believe the first form was an implantation block but I could be wrong.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:59   #37
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Given the pay that most of his employees make, which hovers around minimum wage, that health insurance coverage could mean the difference between having them and not having them. Nobody in their right mind can dispute the argument that a tax dollar spent on birth control is far better than another mouth for the taxpayer to feed.
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Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.
So which is it?

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Old 12-02-2012, 22:09   #38
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So which is it?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
What gives him say over how they can use the medical coverage but not their salaries? Does he also have the right to pay people in special $Christ Dollars$ that can't be redeemed an any place of business that might be construed as subjective? This is why we have the government to straighten these people out.

If it's their money then they earned it. If it's their health coverage then they earned it. They should be allowed to use either how they like. Don't the conservatives here chant that all the time? That plan works just fine until somebody goes about being "unchristian" with their money or coverage.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:11   #39
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GOVERNMENT
That's not government, that's public opinion. But it's kind of the same thing really.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:40   #40
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My question is why do they believe this? It seems to be a relatively recent development among the religious outside of the Catholic Church. What's the scriptural basis for such a position?
What if he decides not to cover genetic diseases because they're God's will?
What if he decides not to pay them as much as they want? What if he decides not to provide insurance? Well, he cannot do that because we already force him to do that. I think he should be able to offer any compensation he does or does not want to and perspective employees are welcome to not work for him.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:55   #41
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What if he decides not to pay them as much as they want?
That's a function of commerce, and within his purview as the owner.
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What if he decides not to provide insurance? Well, he cannot do that because we already force him to do that. I think he should be able to offer any compensation he does or does not want to and perspective employees are welcome to not work for him.
You'd support something similar to the old mining towns, where employees were paid only with company scrip redeemable only in the company stores?

How does one get from a supposedly Christian worldview to denying their employees health care?

Why did you choose not to address any of the questions I asked?
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:28   #42
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My question is why do they believe this? It seems to be a relatively recent development among the religious outside of the Catholic Church. What's the scriptural basis for such a position?
I was not making a claim about the validity of the position. I was trying to clarify what the mainline view concerning these pills and regular birth control pills is. I am not inclined to discuss the validity of the position at present.

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What if he decides not to cover genetic diseases because they're God's will?
What if everyone refuses to work for him at that point? In other words let people's choices influence his. He can then either choose to cover genetic diseases or go out of business. I am less concerned with what he covers and why than I am with a group of people mandating that he do it under threat of violence.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:46   #43
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That's a function of commerce, and within his purview as the owner.
You'd support something similar to the old mining towns, where employees were paid only with company scrip redeemable only in the company stores?
Quote:

I do not know enough about that to comment. My guess is that there was a lot of one group forcing another to comply under threat of violence, but I do not know.
How does one get from a supposedly Christian worldview to denying their employees health care?
I am not denying anyone healthcare. He is not denying anyone health care. How could I support healthcare provisions that are offered under threat of violence? If I owned a business I would want to provide my employees with the maximum benefits I could afford. I would also want that to be my choice.

All of the discussion of a specific benefit is academic in my case as I do not support government mandated health care to begin with, and find the current Administrations socialization of health care repulsive. The more Americans allow government to control the less we control individually. This seems self evident, and yet people either do not understand it, or worse yet do not care.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:35   #44
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I apologize. Which part in particular do you want me to discuss further?
None I guess I just thought you wanted to discuss since you asked for it. I assume we either agree or agree to disagree if you have not points to make.

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I suspect this is the crux of the matter. I think there should be as few of these as possible, including many that already exist. I suspect you do not feel this way. Perhaps I am wrong.
In regards to business you are. And I don't mean that to be condescending. Look at the history of business and industry in this nation alone. Without regulations and standards on what employees deserve or can expect we had 12 year olds dying in coal mines, women working for next to nothing, zero employee benefits. Without standards there'd be no minimum wage. Look at how pathetic the minimum wage is now. There must be standards and regulations otherwise the majority of business owners would absolutely exploit the work force. It's a double edged sword of course. You take it too far and you have union nut jobs demanding $50.00 an hour wage standards for unskilled labor with 4 day work weeks and 30 minute breaks every 30 minutes. So it's a balancing act for sure. But we cannot view business standards through libertarian goggles. Not in a system where it's profitable to take advantage of people.

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Again, YOU want to choose what the employer should provide. The employer is not doing the employee a favor by giving him a job. He opens a business, offers to employ you, and offers extra benefits as compensation for the work you do. If you are not happy with his offer you are free to say no and find something you think is more equal with your value.
I didn't choose anything. The government has set this standard. To take religious issue with one or more is pointless. And it can't be allowed to set a precedent. If it does then it won't be long before employers refuse to offer any medical benefits to employees due to religious objects.

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the other has reasons based either on moral values based on something else (common good, natural law, whatever).
This is your assumption. To me... birth control is no different than Advil. It's a personal care product. It has no morality issue attached to it. Why shouldn't it be included with medical benefits? ESPECIALLY when pregnancy can and does effect work conditions. The only side making it about ideals and morals and values are the religious. Because it has to do with sex. And religious people love trying to restrict, or condition, or direct people in how and when they have sex. If birth control becomes a standard for employee benefits then it just is what it is. If the owners of Hobby Lobby have such a moral objection to it... let them fold up shop.

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At the end of the day it is one group of people's reasoning against another.
But not both groups are making it about morality.

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I suspect that at the end of the day I prefer more liberty and you prefer more common good or whatever (which is another discussion.
It's possible, but you simply need to try and understand how badly employees would be treated if we had absolute liberty in regards to employment standards. It is profitable to pay your employees as little as possible. It's profitable to discriminate. It's profitable to only hire men because they don't get pregnant and want maternity leave. It's profitable to not maintain your safety equipment. It's profitable to use child labor. You see where I'm going? This is a new standard set by the government. I don't really see the issue. But if it's simply a religious issue then the owners of HL can go jump off a bridge for all I care.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:52   #45
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Lets have a boycott and put the company out of business so the boss can't push his religious nonsense on them. Of course that will mean they are out of work and won't have health insurance but it will be worth it because we showed them, didn't we. Great plan.
I didn't suggest a boycott. And I'm sure the owners of HL won't fold up shop. They'll lose their law suit and have to step in line with government regulations. And that will be the end of it.

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The other alternative is simply don't provide health insurance. Hire more part time people and reduce most of your full-timers to part-time.
Lots of places are doing that. I think quality will begin to suffer though as a result. Employees are assets when treated well.
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:57   #46
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What if he decides not to pay them as much as they want? What if he decides not to provide insurance? Well, he cannot do that because we already force him to do that. I think he should be able to offer any compensation he does or does not want to and perspective employees are welcome to not work for him.
Should he also be allowed to employ 10 year old children to work around dangerous arm removing machines for 16 hours a day? How about sweat shop conditions. What if that's what the owner wants to do?
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Old 12-03-2012, 13:59   #47
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What if everyone refuses to work for him at that point? In other words let people's choices influence his. He can then either choose to cover genetic diseases or go out of business. I am less concerned with what he covers and why than I am with a group of people mandating that he do it under threat of violence.
And when ALL employers decide to pay their people less than $3.00 an hour? Then what?
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