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Old 12-02-2012, 19:34   #21
Gunhaver
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
So you'd be OK if the gov. forced you to clothe, house, and feed a Haitian orphan or two???

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Since you twisted that scenario straight outta your butt I'll have to twist it back into something actually resembling the situation we're discussing sooo...

When the rest of the country is doing it without fuss and the Christians are the only ones crying foul then I'll be just fine with that. Experience has taught me that asking, "are the Christians the only ones making a stink about this?" makes for a pretty good litmus test for what's an all around good deal.
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:52   #22
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post

There's room for reasonable compromise here. There's likely a very small % of the cost of coverage needed to pay for those contraceptives in question, seeing as how they're used so rarely. Apparently the owner doesn't have a problem with normal birth control stuff, just morning after and week after pills. Let those people pay the difference to get the extra coverage.
The most reasonable compromise would be for Green to acknowledge that after pills don't cause abortion. They prevent implantation. I know he's been informed of that fact many times and he could ask a professional's opinion if he really wanted to know. This is about the right to remain ignorant and have it adversely affect employees.
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Old 12-02-2012, 20:56   #23
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Yeah... great idea. Have people quit the job that feeds their family because the boss is pushing his religious nonsense on them. Great plan.
I have a better plan. Lets have a boycott and put the company out of business so the boss can't push his religious nonsense on them. Of course that will mean they are out of work and won't have health insurance but it will be worth it because we showed them, didn't we. Great plan.

The other alternative is simply don't provide health insurance. Hire more part time people and reduce most of your full-timers to part-time. You don't even have to provide full time salaried employees with health insurance. You can simply pay the fine and let them pay for their own at the government run health insurance exchange out of their own pocket. There are enough unemployed in this economy who would rather not be a drain on this country that I'm sure he could fill all the positions.

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Old 12-02-2012, 21:04   #24
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The most reasonable compromise would be for Green to acknowledge that after pills don't cause abortion. They prevent implantation. I know he's been informed of that fact many times and he could ask a professional's opinion if he really wanted to know. This is about the right to remain ignorant and have it adversely affect employees.
Josef Rudolf Mengele was a professional.

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Old 12-02-2012, 21:17   #25
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I've heard stories about similar situations. Some church, or some sort of religious place gets all up in arms about obama care, and the government mandating contraceptive coverage, and they claim religious persecution and all this other stuff, and swear up and down that they'd never, ever, ever have health insurance that allows people to get contraceptives, or the pill, or the morning after pill. And then they look at their health care, and they're already doing it.

Not saying that's the case here, just something I've read about. People getting all up in arms about something that they don't even know they've already been doing for years, because they don't bother to think about it until someone else talks about it.

Although it would be really funny if Hobby Lobby was already offering contraceptives, and they didn't know about it.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:19   #26
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
The most reasonable compromise would be for Green to acknowledge that after pills don't cause abortion. They prevent implantation. I know he's been informed of that fact many times and he could ask a professional's opinion if he really wanted to know. This is about the right to remain ignorant and have it adversely affect employees.
It is my understanding that this prevention of the fertilized egg from implanting Is the reason it is considered abortive. If the egg has been fertilized life has begun (from the perspective of most pro life supporters). Of course, there are those now saying that these pills do not prevent implantation, but delay ovulation. The reading I did left me confused. Does the medical community not know how this medication works? Bottom line, if there is a chance of preventing implantation after the egg is fertilized it would be considered abortive.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:34   #27
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I have a better plan. Lets have a boycott and put the company out of business so the boss can't push his religious nonsense on them. Of course that will mean they are out of work and won't have health insurance but it will be worth it because we showed them, didn't we. Great plan.

The other alternative is simply don't provide health insurance. Hire more part time people and reduce most of your full-timers to part-time. You don't even have to provide full time salaried employees with health insurance. You can simply pay the fine and let them pay for their own at the government run health insurance exchange out of their own pocket. There are enough unemployed in this economy who would rather not be a drain on this country that I'm sure he could fill all the positions.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Yes! That's the plan we're going with. If Green wants to make a big stink about his faith over someone else's healthcare then he'll have to do it at the risk of his business. This twerp is actually claiming some authority over what a health benefit package covers and he's using his religion to do it. I wonder if he thinks his employee's salaries are not to be used to buy unchristian material since it's him paying the salaries after all.

If there are enough people that are sick of hearing this self righteous BS and can hurt his business enough by not shopping there then he'll have to either apologize and cave or let the place go under. Then it can be bought by someone that doesn't care about birth control or absorbed by it's competitors. End result is that less uptight individuals end up running the show and everybody is happier.
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Old 12-02-2012, 21:48   #28
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Yes! That's the plan we're going with. If Green wants to make a big stink about his faith over someone else's healthcare then he'll have to do it at the risk of his business. This twerp is actually claiming some authority over what a health benefit package covers and he's using his religion to do it. I wonder if he thinks his employee's salaries are not to be used to buy unchristian material since it's him paying the salaries after all.

If there are enough people that are sick of hearing this self righteous BS and can hurt his business enough by not shopping there then he'll have to either apologize and cave or let the place go under. Then it can be bought by someone that doesn't care about birth control or absorbed by it's competitors. End result is that less uptight individuals end up running the show and everybody is happier.

GOVERNMENT
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:08   #29
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It is my understanding that this prevention of the fertilized egg from implanting Is the reason it is considered abortive. If the egg has been fertilized life has begun (from the perspective of most pro life supporters). Of course, there are those now saying that these pills do not prevent implantation, but delay ovulation. The reading I did left me confused. Does the medical community not know how this medication works? Bottom line, if there is a chance of preventing implantation after the egg is fertilized it would be considered abortive.
Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.

Even if it did oust an implanted egg it's still not doing anything that women's bodies don't automatically do all the time.

This is basically the memo Green sent to his employees,

So it's OK for eggs to not be naturally fertilized and it's OK to chemically prevent fertilized. It's OK for eggs to not be naturally implanted but not OK to chemically prevent implantation. And it's OK for the egg to naturally leave implantation but not OK to remove an implanted egg.

That's the kind of stuff he decides for them with the bible as his guide. I'm betting most of his workers wanted more of an employer than a pastor.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:31   #30
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He doesn't understand what the morning after pill does. It prevents pregnancy, it doesn't terminate a pregnancy.
I disagree with most of his beliefs but I respect that he's fighting to run his own company the way he wants to. Good for him.
A fine point.... The man believes human life begins at CONCEPTION the moment the sperm enters the egg which usually takes place in the fallopian tubes, then the zygote travels on into the uterus, IMPLANTATION is that zygote (human life) attaching to the uterus to grow, so the morning after pill by preventing implantation of a zygote causes a human life to be terminated or in other words "aborted", so he IS dead on in his beliefs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:31   #31
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Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.
Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.

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That's the kind of stuff he decides for them with the bible as his guide..
Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:37   #32
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Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.



Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
That sort of freedom is a frightening concept for some people. It requires they take responsibility for themselves.

Regards,
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Last edited by happyguy; 12-02-2012 at 22:38..
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:39   #33
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Regular old birth control pills prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. That's the round pop out pill container that everybody and her mother has been on since the 70s. The morning after pill works the same way but in one dose that has to be taken in a time window to work.
Wrong, wrong wrong-
Birth control pills work by interfering with the natural hormonal cycle of a woman, preventing the ripening and release of an ovum. Which is why women with a problem of developing ovarian cysts caused by failure to release ovums are prescribed birth control pills.

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-d...rol-pills-work
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:41   #34
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Yes, and it is for this reason that many pro life women do not use them. It is for the same reason they do not support the use of morning after pills.
My question is why do they believe this? It seems to be a relatively recent development among the religious outside of the Catholic Church. What's the scriptural basis for such a position?
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Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
What if he decides not to cover genetic diseases because they're God's will?
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:45   #35
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Again, he is not deciding if they can use them, he is deciding if he will pay for them as the owner of the business. They are free to buy them with their salary or to find an employer that does provide them.
Given the pay that most of his employees make, which hovers around minimum wage, that health insurance coverage could mean the difference between having them and not having them. Nobody in their right mind can dispute the argument that a tax dollar spent on birth control is far better than another mouth for the taxpayer to feed.

And as I said previously, he pays for the health plan that the employee earns as part of their compensation. To expect to have any degree of control over the care provided is like having employee conduct rules for how the money one earns from him can be spent. He pays the payroll, employees spend their money how they like. He pays the healthcare, the employees use the coverage as they like.

Maybe he wants special consideration from the law based on his religious beliefs so he can make sure none of his employees use their paychecks at the titty bar or the casino. He paid those salaries after all.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:58   #36
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Wrong, wrong wrong-
Birth control pills work by interfering with the natural hormonal cycle of a woman, preventing the ripening and release of an ovum. Which is why women with a problem of developing ovarian cysts caused by failure to release ovums are prescribed birth control pills.

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-d...rol-pills-work
There are ingredients in many forms that prevent ovulation and implantation. Some only cover one or the other. I believe the first form was an implantation block but I could be wrong.
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Old 12-02-2012, 22:59   #37
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Given the pay that most of his employees make, which hovers around minimum wage, that health insurance coverage could mean the difference between having them and not having them. Nobody in their right mind can dispute the argument that a tax dollar spent on birth control is far better than another mouth for the taxpayer to feed.
Quote:
Our full-time employees start at 80% above minimum wage.
So which is it?

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Old 12-02-2012, 23:09   #38
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So which is it?

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What gives him say over how they can use the medical coverage but not their salaries? Does he also have the right to pay people in special $Christ Dollars$ that can't be redeemed an any place of business that might be construed as subjective? This is why we have the government to straighten these people out.

If it's their money then they earned it. If it's their health coverage then they earned it. They should be allowed to use either how they like. Don't the conservatives here chant that all the time? That plan works just fine until somebody goes about being "unchristian" with their money or coverage.
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Old 12-02-2012, 23:11   #39
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GOVERNMENT
That's not government, that's public opinion. But it's kind of the same thing really.
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Old 12-02-2012, 23:40   #40
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My question is why do they believe this? It seems to be a relatively recent development among the religious outside of the Catholic Church. What's the scriptural basis for such a position?
What if he decides not to cover genetic diseases because they're God's will?
What if he decides not to pay them as much as they want? What if he decides not to provide insurance? Well, he cannot do that because we already force him to do that. I think he should be able to offer any compensation he does or does not want to and perspective employees are welcome to not work for him.
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