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Old 06-11-2012, 13:35   #76
Taterhead
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200 gr XTP Over Accurate no. 9

In years past, I had done workups with my supply of A9 powder purchased a few years ago. It was made in Belgium. Most of you know that Accurate now has powders produced in the USA (I believe this is also true for A5 & A7).

The made in USA powder is a little denser and has a totally different look to it. The Belgium stuff was a dull, dark color of the tiniest little spheres. The USA powder is dark, but shines in the right light. It is also tiny, but is somewhat of a flattened ball. Thankfully it meters as well as the Belgium lots.

I wanted to do a re-test with 200 grain XTPs to see if much had changed. The Belgium lots were noticeably temperature sensitive. Accurate claims that the new formula is better in that regard. This test seems to back that up.

The Belgium powder that was tested at 90F ran WAY faster than comparable loads of the Belgium powder tested at 50F; with temperature being the only significant variable.

All other variables were the same except for the temperatures noted. The new lots tracked very closely to what the Belgium powder lots did when tested at 90 degrees.

Firearm: Gen 3 Glock 20 with stock barrel (4.6") and RSA
Temp: 65F
Elevation: 3200 feet
Brass: Starline
Primer: WLP
COL: 1.26"
Bullet: Hornady 200 gr HP/XTP
Powder: Accurate no. 9 (hand weighed and verified with check weights)
Velocities were 10 shot averages not corrected to the muzzle.

Caution! These loads are less than Hornady max data, but some do exceed Accurate's max load of 12.5 grains. If you choose to reproduce these loads, please reduce to Accurate's starting load of 11.3 grains and work up carefully in 0.2 grain increments. I had done so in previous testing, but did not list the results here.

12.4 grains
Average velocity: 1160 fps

12.6 grains
Average velocity: 1170 fps

12.8 grains
Average velocity: 1185 fps

13.0 grains
Average velocity: 1200 fps

Notes.

Accurate no. 9 always seems to exhibit flattening primers. Yondering hypothesized that it might be due to the fact that some of the tiny kernels make their way down into the flash hole and into the primer cup and increase pressure a bit on the primer. I think there might be some truth to that. There was no perceivable difference in primer condition from beginning load to end.

The 13.0 grain load grouped excellently. 1" at 15 yards for 5 shots is pretty good for me.

No excessive pressure indications of any sort. I like the fact that 1200 fps is attainable with the 200 XTP by using data right out of a reloading manual.

Last edited by Taterhead; 06-14-2012 at 23:12..
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Old 06-11-2012, 13:48   #77
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Thanks Taterhead. A 200 grain XTP bullet traveling at 1200fps is no slouch and is apparently quite accurate.

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Old 06-11-2012, 22:38   #78
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
155 gr XTPs with Accurate No. 9

Ran some new loads over the chrony today. Respectable results. No issues.

Firearm: G20 with stock spring and barrel
Temp: 85 low humidity
Five shot average except for last three strings were 10 shots each. Velocities were not corrected to the muzzle.

Bullet: Hornady 155 gr XTP
Case: Starline
Primer: CCI 350
Powder: Accurate #9
COL 1.25"

14.3 gr
Average velocity: 1293
ME: 575

14.6 gr
Average velocity: 1309
ME:590

14.9 gr
Average velocity: 1332
ME: 610

15.2 gr
No data - chrony errors

15.5 gr
Average velocity: 1370
ME: 646

15.8 gr
Average velocity: 1401
ME: 675

16.0 gr
Average velocity: 1415
ME: 689

Notes: Accurate's max is 15.9 gr with a standard primer @ 32,700 PSI. I elected to go with a mag primer to ensure a good burn with that much powder. With the mag primers, I suspect that the pressures were a bit higher. They were getting warm (as noted by case expansion) by 15.8 gr. I suspect that bumping another 3-5 tenths would not be an issue, but case volume is about maxed at 16.0 gr.

The starting load was 50 fps faster than what Accurate was reporting from a 5# barrel. The top velocity was very close to book. I may try these with standard primers to see how they run. As is typical with A9, very clean burn. Little powder residue. These have a pretty pronounced recoil at 15.5 gr + and quite a bark. No issues with groups @ 15 yards.
Retest. All variables the same as above except 1) primer swap to CCI 300, and 2) abmient temperature.

I originally did workups with a CCI Mag primer. I wanted to do a re-test with standard primers. The velocities are slower, as expected. I attribute some of that to the fact that is was 20F lower for the second test. The Accurate no. 9 powder was from an older lot produced in Belgium that was noticeably temperature sensitive. The first two strings were 5 shot averages. The rest were 10 shot averages.

14.9 gr
Average velocity: 1257
ME: 543

15.2 gr
Average velocity: 1257 (chrony errors so limited sample)
ME: 543

15.5 gr
Average velocity: 1339
ME: 617

15.8 gr
Average velocity: 1366
ME: 642

16.0 gr
Average velocity: 1373
ME: 648

I bet that the mag primer was worth about 25 fps, and temperatures were attributable for the difference.

The brass looked far less "worked" with the standard primer. It would probably be about impossible to stuff enough powder in there to get excessive pressures.

Note: The more recent lots of A9 (made in USA) are denser, so potentially could add another several tenths. I bet 16.5 grains could get in there. Accurate reports that pressures at 15.9 grains is 32,700 fps.

Crap. Now there is another thing on the to-do list... I just happen to have some 155 XTPs onhand so might not be too long.
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Old 06-13-2012, 21:20   #79
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Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
The 13.0 grain load grouped excellently. 1" at 15 yards for 5 shots is pretty good for me.

No excessive pressure indications of any sort. I like the fact that 1200 fps is attainable with the 200 XTP by using data right out of a reloading manual.
Good stuff. Here's an interesting observation I made recently, see if you have the same results: Within the 180-220gr range of bullet weights, Accurate #9 seems to give me close to the same velocity, for a given powder charge. For example, I'm loading my 220gr cast bullet over 13.0gr #9, for 1300 fps. The same load, but substituting a 180gr TC cast (Lee 175 TC mold), shot only slightly faster, at 1320 fps. I haven't found this to be true with other powders, but will be paying more attention now.

Edit: for anyone wondering, these velocities are from a 6.6" barrel in a G20 solid top long slide with a muzzle brake. The 220gr load is "full power", but the 180gr feels relatively mild.

Last edited by Yondering; 06-13-2012 at 21:22..
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Old 06-14-2012, 23:08   #80
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Good stuff. Here's an interesting observation I made recently, see if you have the same results: Within the 180-220gr range of bullet weights, Accurate #9 seems to give me close to the same velocity, for a given powder charge. For example, I'm loading my 220gr cast bullet over 13.0gr #9, for 1300 fps. The same load, but substituting a 180gr TC cast (Lee 175 TC mold), shot only slightly faster, at 1320 fps. I haven't found this to be true with other powders, but will be paying more attention now.

Edit: for anyone wondering, these velocities are from a 6.6" barrel in a G20 solid top long slide with a muzzle brake. The 220gr load is "full power", but the 180gr feels relatively mild.
Yes, I have observed the same thing, except maybe a bit more extreme. 180 XTPs actually are generally a few fps slower than 200 XTPs for a comparable charge - as much as 50 fps at the high end. I attribute that to the long bearing surface and high bullet pull of the 200 grainer allowing the slow-buring A9 to build up a head of steam. For whatever reason, 180 XTPs just don't run that fast in my G20, no matter the powder (800-X, Longshot, Blue Dot, A7, A9, etc.). A9 is tops at about 1230 fps with more room to go. That is followed closely by Blue Dot.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:47   #81
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I saw sort of the same thing using the very long Barnes 100% copper 140 grain bullets in my testing. These were the same length as the 200gr XTP's

TAC-XP FB 140 grain pn# 40005 10mm/40S&W0.400”
12.6 grains of AA#9 (had to adjust, powder shovingthe bullet back out 1.270")(Totally compressed @ 12.6 gr.) @ 1181 fps,Primer was totally flattened to the edges. This was about the same results with Hornady's give or take a few fps.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:50   #82
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:35   #83
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180gr XTP over AA#7

180 gr XTP, AA#7, COL 2.255"
Pistol was 4.5" barreled EAA Witness.
No significant pressure signs were noted.


11.0
____

1162
1223
1265
1195

avg: 1211

11.2
____

1203
1198
1134
1197

avg: 1183

11.4
____

1190
1205
1228
1222
1212

avg: 1211

11.6
____

1232
1213
1212
1226
1241

avg: 1225

11.8
____

1231
1260
1252
1254
1255
1245

avg: 1250

12.0
____

1259
1270
1282
1271
1266
1284

avg: 1272


I want to point out that this exceeds the loads recommended by Accurate but is within the bounds of Hornady's 7th edition. According to their data, Accurate did not test this combination at the full 37.5K psi, whereas a Hornady tech advised me that they do go up to the full SAAMI spec pressure.

It seems to me that this powder is a lot "happier" at or near max. 11.0 and 11.4 yielded the same avg velocity and all the lower powder charges had some pretty wide spreads in velocity. The three heavier charges were much more consistent and showed a much flatter progression in velocity. I'm tempted to go faster but according to the Hornady tech I ought to be at or near the full 37.5K psi.
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Last edited by Andrew Wiggin; 09-26-2012 at 17:59.. Reason: Correction: 11.0 & 11.4 had the same average. Sorry for the typo.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:37   #84
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Thanks for the data and research with Hornady Andrew.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:52   #85
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165 Gold Dot over #9

Hi guys, my first contribution to this forum. I didn't see much data for 165 GDHP so I thought I'd share my results from some testing this week.

Stock G20
50F, 95% Humidity, 902 ft elevation
165 gr Gold Dot Hollow point
AA #9
Starline brass
1.255 OAL
CCI 350

15.0 = 1268 fps avg
1242, 1297, 1266, 1274, 1261

15.2 = 1286 fps avg
1308, 1267, 1291, 1280, 1287

15.4 = 1310 fps avg
1307, 1309, 1318, 1307

15.6 = 1311 fps avg
1322, 1319, 1308, 1297

All of these were extremely accurate and I didn't see any signs of over pressure in any of the brass, which was brand new. I decided to load up 200 of the 15.6 grs as my SD load for now.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:01   #86
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135 gr Nosler AA#9

2nd load that I played with this weekend. I wasn't overly impressed with the velocity, but the accuracy was excellent. At the 17.5 gr, there didn't look like there was any room left in the case so that's where I stopped, which was also the max load listed in the AA book I have. No pressure signs on the brass and the primers look like they always do, slightly flattened, which seems to be consistent for me with AA #9 regardless of the charge. The AA book says the 17.5 gr load is only 29,000 (going from memory here) so the primer flattening can only be a result of the powder getting into the primer pocket as some smarter folks than I have theorized.

Stock G20
50F, 95% Humidity, 902 ft elevation
135 gr Nosler HP
AA #9
Starline brass, new
1.255 OAL
CCI 350

16.5 gr = 1314 fps avg
1295, 1332, 1315, 1316, 1312

16.8 gr = 1325 fps avg
1341, 1323, 1321, 1306, 1336

17.2 gr = 1335 fps avg
1354, 1328, 1330, 1320, 1347

17.5 gr = 1373 fps avg
1329, 1410, 1379, 1359, 1389
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Old 12-04-2012, 22:19   #87
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In regards to your 165gr data... My carry load is 15.2gr of AA#9 with a 165gr Gold Dot. I usually see about 1320fps out of the load with an OAL of 1.250". I wonder if .005" would make that much of a difference in velocity? Maybe the colder temp could affect things too?

About the 135gr data... Since the 135gr bullets are pretty light, I've determined that AA#7 or even AA#5 will make a better powder for it. I'm still working on a 1500-1600fps load :-)
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:01   #88
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I always seem to get slightly slower velocities than many others, could be my barrel, my chrony, or the weather. ~30 fps isn't insignificant, maybe I'll try shortening the OAL and see if that makes up for the difference.

And I hear ya (and others) on the 135gr with #9. It's just too slow for that light bullet. I have an older Accurate reloading guide (15 or so years) and it has #9 listed for the 135 Nosler, the new one does not. I started another thread looking for suggestions on the low velocity and tried some #7 and 800X, both with decent results, though no where near the velocities you're working on.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:08   #89
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Originally Posted by atyszka View Post
I always seem to get slightly slower velocities than many others, could be my barrel, my chrony, or the weather. ~30 fps isn't insignificant, maybe I'll try shortening the OAL and see if that makes up for the difference.

And I hear ya (and others) on the 135gr with #9. It's just too slow for that light bullet. I have an older Accurate reloading guide (15 or so years) and it has #9 listed for the 135 Nosler, the new one does not. I started another thread looking for suggestions on the low velocity and tried some #7 and 800X, both with decent results, though no where near the velocities you're working on.
I really wonder what powder Underwood is using to get 1600fps out of 135gr pills. I'll be lucky to get 1500fps out of AA#5 or AA#7
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:13   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
I really wonder what powder Underwood is using to get 1600fps out of 135gr pills. I'll be lucky to get 1500fps out of AA#5 or AA#7
800X and Longshot will both get 1600fps, advantage going to 800X
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:50   #91
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I really wonder what powder Underwood is using to get 1600fps out of 135gr pills. I'll be lucky to get 1500fps out of AA#5 or AA#7
Wonder no more. The_Shadow did a teardown of Underwood 10mm loads, they're all 800X and he weighed all the charges. GREAT info.

http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10m...5155165180220/
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:47   #92
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Yep I put them back together and shot them for the velocity info as well. The 135 grain was a supprise;
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 11.8 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 135 Gr. Nosler JHP 1738 fps : Diameter 0.4325" @ the light "Smile" primer GONE, popped out!, case didn't eject as tested from my S&W1006.
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Old 02-23-2014, 22:44   #93
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200 gr WFNGC Hardcast and Accurate no. 9

I've posted some data for this bullet/powder combo in this forum, but never posted it here in the Accurate sticky.

I've actually done two separate workups with the WFNGC bullet.

Double Tap and Beartooth both make this bullet. In my opinion the Beartooth is a better bullet. They have more consistent weight, and the casting is of better quality. Either, though, are effective. Mike McNett of DT told me that theirs was an identical copy of the BT (that they used to load in their ammo). There are some subtle differences, but they are quite similar.

The first workups were with the DT bullet. The Accurate powder was from the now-obsolete Belgian made lots. The BT loads were with lots that are now made in the USA.

A quick point about load data:

Basically, there is no load data for this bullet type. There is load data for cast loads, but these bullets are a different animal.

When Speer used to make the 200 gr TMJ available for components, there was data from Speer and Accurate for the 200 gr TMJ and Accurate no. 9. Speer's max was 14.0 gr and Accurate's was 13.5. Speer called for a CCI 350, and Accurate used a CCI 300. These bullets are a fairly low friction design, so that was a loose frame of reference for load workups.

Components:

Brass: new Starline
Primer: CCI 350
COL: 1.26"
Powder: Accurate no. 9
Bullet: Wide Flat Nosed Gas Checked Hardcast (WFNGC) 200 gr. (sized .401")
Gun: Gen 3 Glock 20. Stock barrel and RSA

I captured chrony data for 2 of the relays for the DT loads. Temp 90F:

13.3 grains: ave velocity = 1168 fps
13.8 grains: ave velocity = 1205 fps (this was tested a second time with similar results)

Beartooth loads tested at 42F with the newer A9 lots:

12.7 grains: ave velocity = 1148 fps
13.0 grains: ave velocity = 1174 fps
13.3 grains: ave velocity = 1180 fps
13.6 grains: ave velocity = 1208 fps
13.8 grains: ave velocity = 1232 fps

No symptoms of excessive pressures, and no leading in the G20 barrel. Groups are acceptable. Not great. I consider this bullet to be great for the wilderness where you might need penetration. I don't see this as a long range target bullet.

If you choose to attempt these loads, please reduce to 12.5 fps or lower and workup in 2 tenths of a grain increments. As stated earlier, this load data is not supported by published load data. What works in my gun might not work in yours.

A tech at Accurate told me that the newer lots are lest temp sensitive. This is yet another data point to substantiate that. Note that the temperature of the tests from the older lots was 90F. The later tests were in the 40s yet had faster velocities. I observed notable temp sensitivity with the older lots.

Last edited by Taterhead; 02-23-2014 at 22:47..
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Old 03-18-2014, 18:04   #94
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From everything I've read and seen (admittedly, all were on forums, NOT firsthand).... it seems like AA9 is a great powder, both powerful, accurate and pretty versatile, HOWEVER, it shines MOST BRIGHTLY when using heavy and/or high-drag bullets in long barrels.

Examples.... 180 and 200gr XTP's are both high drag and decently heavy bullets that work very well with AA9 for FULL VELOCITY loads, the nod going to 200gr. The 200gr BTB / WFNGC bullets are a very good match with AA9 but you will start to see REAL GAINS in sheer velocity when you add 1) high-drag (ie, XTP design), 2) heavier bullet (ie, 220-230gr) or 3) longer barrels or even 4) high case neck tension or crimp.... all of these due to the slow burn characteristics of this powder.

Anyone with firsthand knowledge feel free to chime in on my summary.

Can't wait to get into this pound of AA9 and start playing with 6" velocities of hunting bullets....
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Old 03-18-2014, 18:56   #95
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Good take Nick. Although 1425 fps out of a 4.6" barrel with a 155 using book data is pretty good too. Not sure how to top that and stay "on book." Best results are with new brass that I re-size so that the ID of the case gives a tight fit for the bullet. Lots of neck tension gives good results.

Scanning my load log (spreadsheet), there are numerous mid single-digit SDs on velocities with 180 and 200 grainers. Out of 32 unique workup data points for 180 and 200 gr bullets, half of them have SDs of 10 or less. That translates to outstanding groups. On paper, it is hard to beat a 180 or 200 gr XTP and A9. Blue Dot is right there, but nothing else is.

Now, this is not a crucial for service pistols, but it does speak to your take that this powder does well when you let it build a head of steam. I think that is also why some guys don't get any velocities with A9.


Have fun messing around with your new powder. You have to really work to get enough of it in a case in order to get into trouble. The big downside to A9 is that those big ol' charge weights suck down a pound of powder pretty quickly.

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Old 03-18-2014, 19:09   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Good take Nick. Although 1425 fps out of a 4.6" barrel with a 155 using book data is pretty good too. Not sure how to top that and stay "on book." Best results are with new brass that I re-size so that the ID of the case gives a tight fit for the bullet. Lots of neck tension gives good results.

Scanning my load log (spreadsheet), there are numerous mid single-digit SDs on velocities with 180 and 200 grainers. Out of 32 unique workup data points for 180 and 200 gr bullets, half of them have SDs of 10 or less. That translates to outstanding groups. On paper, it is hard to beat a 180 or 200 gr XTP and A9. Blue Dot is right there, but nothing else is.

Now, this is not a crucial for service pistols, but it does speak to your take that this powder does well when you let it build a head of steam. I think that is also why some guys don't get any velocities with A9.


Have fun messing around with your new powder. You have to really work to get enough of it in a case in order to get into trouble. The big downside to A9 is that those big ol' charge weights suck down a pound of powder pretty quickly.

As usual, nail on the head, Tater.

I'm okay with using almost double the powder IF I can get a 200gr XTP over 1250 with a book load and IF it groups extremely well. For hunting and full power loads I usually use new or almost new cases so neck tension won't be an issue.

Can't wait to start playing.
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Old 03-18-2014, 19:59   #97
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Yep, I agree it takes a little attention to the details (case fit/bullet fit) with them working at the upper edge to get the most bang for given bullets. At the top of this page, I was stuffing as much as I could get inside using the Barnes 140 TAC-XP, to the point where it stopped pushing the bullet back out...

I still have some of my older AA#7 (early 90's) and some of the AA#9 that has the micro-spheres to use up on some projects. But for now they are there for testing and learning as needed....
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:40   #98
nickE10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
In years past, I had done workups with my supply of A9 powder purchased a few years ago. It was made in Belgium. Most of you know that Accurate now has powders produced in the USA (I believe this is also true for A5 & A7).

The made in USA powder is a little denser and has a totally different look to it. The Belgium stuff was a dull, dark color of the tiniest little spheres. The USA powder is dark, but shines in the right light. It is also tiny, but is somewhat of a flattened ball. Thankfully it meters as well as the Belgium lots.

I wanted to do a re-test with 200 grain XTPs to see if much had changed. The Belgium lots were noticeably temperature sensitive. Accurate claims that the new formula is better in that regard. This test seems to back that up.

The Belgium powder that was tested at 90F ran WAY faster than comparable loads of the Belgium powder tested at 50F; with temperature being the only significant variable.

All other variables were the same except for the temperatures noted. The new lots tracked very closely to what the Belgium powder lots did when tested at 90 degrees.

Firearm: Gen 3 Glock 20 with stock barrel (4.6") and RSA
Temp: 65F
Elevation: 3200 feet
Brass: Starline
Primer: WLP
COL: 1.26"
Bullet: Hornady 200 gr HP/XTP
Powder: Accurate no. 9 (hand weighed and verified with check weights)
Velocities were 10 shot averages not corrected to the muzzle.

Caution! These loads are less than Hornady max data, but some do exceed Accurate's max load of 12.5 grains. If you choose to reproduce these loads, please reduce to Accurate's starting load of 11.3 grains and work up carefully in 0.2 grain increments. I had done so in previous testing, but did not list the results here.

12.4 grains
Average velocity: 1160 fps

12.6 grains
Average velocity: 1170 fps

12.8 grains
Average velocity: 1185 fps

13.0 grains
Average velocity: 1200 fps

Notes.

Accurate no. 9 always seems to exhibit flattening primers. Yondering hypothesized that it might be due to the fact that some of the tiny kernels make their way down into the flash hole and into the primer cup and increase pressure a bit on the primer. I think there might be some truth to that. There was no perceivable difference in primer condition from beginning load to end.

The 13.0 grain load grouped excellently. 1" at 15 yards for 5 shots is pretty good for me.

No excessive pressure indications of any sort. I like the fact that 1200 fps is attainable with the 200 XTP by using data right out of a reloading manual.

This is encouraging to me, as the results from G20er (post #30 here I believe) indicated that he only got 1120-1160fps from the same 13g charge and only to 1200fps going up to 14.3gr.

If I can get 1200fps with 13g I'll be happy as a clam.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42