[muscogee]

Originally Posted by JBnTX

Christmas is the day Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus.
No Christian has ever implied anything else.

Why do they say he was born on Dec. 25?

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

yeah I know. The bible means something completely different than what it actually says. I keep waiting to get my magical decoder ring in the mail.

You folks and your mental gymnastics.

Nope. You just need to do some actual research & read it as if you were an adult.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Nope. You just need to do some actual research & read it as if you were an adult.

We do, that's why we keep trying to figure why people aren't following what it says.

But thanks for the name calling, it's always funny when so-called christians resort to name calling.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Nope, not really.

Very old records show that the belief was that Christ was incarnated in the spring, which could very well mean that his conception was at that time. March 25th (the feast of the Annunciation) was the best guess, given the ancient Jewish belief in the integral age of prophets and given that they thiought that He died on March 25th. IF Mary's pregnancy lasted exactly 9 months (the best guess, although by no means a certainty), that brings us to: December 25th!!

Or it could very well mean that he was born in the spring.

Now it logically follows that if Jesus Christ lived (need it be said?), he must have been born. The Gospels tell us that his birth was shortly before Herod the Great died. Herod's death can be fixed with certainty.
Josephus records an eclipse of the moon just before Herod passed on. This occurred on March 12th or 13th in 4 B.C. Josephus also tells us that Herod expired just before Passover. This feast took place on April 11th, in the same year, 4 B.C. From other details supplied by Josephus, we can pinpoint Herod the Great's demise as occurring between March 29th and April 4th in 4 B.C.

http://bible.org/article/birth-jesus-christ

A careful analysis of Scripture, however, clearly indicates that December 25 couldn't be the date for Christ's birth. Here are two primary reasons:
First, we know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:7-8


). Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).
Similarly, The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues "against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted" shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.
Second, Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4




). Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.
Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, "the important fact then which I have asked you to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism" (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, 1970, p. 62).

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/when-wa...-christmas-day


So, according to your bible, jesus was born in the spring, not conceived in spring.

[muscogee]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Do you think it could be said that religion as a whole has done far more harm than good? And that we'd have flying cars now if it wasn't for religion always holding us back?

I think religion was good in the early days of the agricultural revolution because it kept people from running off and forming their own tribes of hunter gatherers. If they ran off, God would get them. God would even get them after they died. There was no escape. This was necessary to insure there was enough labor to plant and harvest the corps. This led to civilization. However, its outlived its usefulness.

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by muscogee

Why do they say he was born on Dec. 25?

Did you see my post above?

Read The Pagan Origins of Christmas?

... for example.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by muscogee

I think religion was good in the early days of the agricultural revolution because it kept people from running off and forming their own tribes of hunter gatherers. If they ran off, God would get them. God would even get them after they died. There was no escape. This was necessary to insure there was enough labor to plant and harvest the corps. This led to civilization. However, its outlived its usefulness.

Then the question becomes Whose religion?

Yes Christianity came out on top as the dominant religion, but was it really the best?

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Did you see my post above?

Read The Pagan Origins of Christmas?

... for example.

Did you see my post above? The bible says he was born in the spring.

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Or it could very well mean that he was born in the spring.



http://bible.org/article/birth-jesus-christ




http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/when-wa...-christmas-day


So, according to your bible, jesus was born in the spring, not conceived in spring.

Try to THINK about what you quoted.

Herod the Great's demise as occurring between March 29th and April 4th in 4 B.C.

So, christ had to be born, Mary had to recover. They had to present Him at the Temple for circumcision (8 days later). The Magi had to come and visit. Herod had to wait for them to return, only to find out that they hadn't. An indeterminate time later, Herod had to decide to kill all the newborns under 2 years of age, after which Joseph had to pack up & move to Egypt. Then, an indeterminate time later, Herod dies, and Joseph is given the all-clear to return to Judah.

Tell me again why you think that Christ had to be born in the spring based on this evidence?

Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).

First, weather isn't consistant. Second, even today shepherds oftentimes are in the fields during December, although not as often for safety reasons:

In Bethlehem, shepherds watching their flocks by night are a dying breed

Aren't you at least a little embarassed about posting such easily refuted "evidence?"

[Schabesbert]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Did you see my post above? The bible says he was born in the spring.

I'm embarassed for you.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Try to THINK about what you quoted.

Herod the Great's demise as occurring between March 29th and April 4th in 4 B.C.

So, christ had to be born, Mary had to recover. They had to present Him at the Temple for circumcision (8 days later). The Magi had to come and visit. Herod had to wait for them to return, only to find out that they hadn't. An indeterminate time later, Herod had to decide to kill all the newborns under 2 years of age, after which Joseph had to pack up & move to Egypt. Then, an indeterminate time later, Herod dies, and Joseph is given the all-clear to return to Judah.

Tell me again why you think that Christ had to be born in the spring based on this evidence?

Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).

First, weather isn't consistant. Second, even today shepherds oftentimes are in the fields during December, although not as often for safety reasons:

In Bethlehem, shepherds watching their flocks by night are a dying breed

Aren't you at least a little embarassed about posting such easily refuted "evidence?"

I'm still waiting for you refute to the evidence. And if you didn't bother to realize it, that evidence comes direct from religious people, who I'm sure are way more educated in the bible than you are. So are you trying to say they're wrong and you're right?

So, who is right? The author of Matthew, who claims that Jesus was born shortly before the death of Herod, which happened around 4 BC, or Luke, who claims Jesus was born during the Roman census, which happened around 6 AD.

Yet another contradiction of your mighty book.

[happyguy]

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Bab...z/-/index.html

OK guys, give it back.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

[happyguy]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

I'm embarassed for you.

Good, because people like him don't know either embarrassment or shame.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Nope. You just need to do some actual research & read it as if you were an adult.

Insulting me does nothing to substantiate your position. Care to elaborate?

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by Cream Soda Kid

You're a putz.

and you're very articulate. You've just convinced many on here that Christmas is a christian holiday. If only everyone on this board could be as bright as you, and bring facts to the table instead of name calling!

[OctoberRust]

just read through the whole thread. Looks like the christian trolls are in full force today. Glad to see my thread is making some gears turn in their heads.

[Animal Mother]

Originally Posted by Schabesbert

Try to THINK about what you quoted.

Herod the Great's demise as occurring between March 29th and April 4th in 4 B.C.

So, christ had to be born, Mary had to recover. They had to present Him at the Temple for circumcision (8 days later).

Did the Magi visit before or after this?

The Magi had to come and visit. Herod had to wait for them to return, only to find out that they hadn't.

How long should Herod have had to wait to make this realization, if Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in Jerusalem only 8 days later?

An indeterminate time later, Herod had to decide to kill all the newborns under 2 years of age,

An event no one else, other than Matthew records. Why would Herod, knowing as he presumably would of the census and the related movements to ancestral homes (as needed to explain why the Holy Family were in Bethlehem in the first place) limit his slaughter to Bethlehem? Wouldn't the King receive word of Simeon's blessing?

after which Joseph had to pack up & move to Egypt.

Even assuming a December birth, Herod was dead within months, why would the Holy Family have had to flee to Egypt, instead of just going home from Bethlehem, if that's where the slaughter was ordered?

Then, an indeterminate time later, Herod dies, and Joseph is given the all-clear to return to Judah.

How long did they spend in Egypt?

Aren't you at least a little embarassed about posting such easily refuted "evidence?"

Are you at least a little embarrassed to be posting such questionable "refutations"?

[series1811]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

just read through the whole thread. Looks like the christian trolls are in full force today. Glad to see my thread is making some gears turn in their heads.

Still don't want to talk about what happened that makes you the way you are?

You can't run from it forever, you know. And, if you think starting a thread like this doesn't scream problems to normal people, go show it to your relatives or co-workers and ask them.

[Sharkey]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

just read through the whole thread. Looks like the christian trolls are in full force today. Glad to see my thread is making some gears turn in their heads.

I am sure I speak for many trolls, Christ is most definitely in MY Christmas. If you want to celebrate Kwanza or bow to some pagan pole (you aren't the firs or last), this is America and you have the right. I also have the right to call you a _____ for doing so. Trolls seem to abound in RI.

[Sharkey]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

Insulting me does nothing to substantiate your position. Care to elaborate?

Why? People elaborate for you all the time. No one here is gonna have an epiphany and say OMG, YOU are right. I am just not gonna take biblical teaching from an unbeliever.

[Sharkey]

Originally Posted by TK-421

We do, that's why we keep trying to figure why people aren't following what it says.

But thanks for the name calling, it's always funny when so-called christians resort to name calling.

Wow, kinda sensitive? Telling you to read something as an adult is name calling? You folks crack me up. I think when I called you a tool in another thread "might" be considered name calling.

[Glock36shooter]

Originally Posted by Sharkey

Why? People elaborate for you all the time. No one here is gonna have an epiphany and say OMG, YOU are right. I am just not gonna take biblical teaching from an unbeliever.

An unbeliever that knows more about your bible than you do.

It's funny how you'd rather be wrong than listen to me.

[Sharkey]

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

An unbeliever that knows more about your bible than you do.

It's funny how you'd rather be wrong than listen to me.

A mighty anti theologian you are. Maybe you should write a book and call it - The Case Against Christ. Your atheist buddies here could buy it an you could do a book signing tour. Look how much Stobel has made and how many lives he has changed. You sir are way smarter than him.

[happyguy]

Originally Posted by OctoberRust

Yea, that's why if I'm going to pick an imaginary friend, I tend to side with Odin. He was a bad ass dude! I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to smash the hammer into an infidel's skull, not to mention drink meid from it while they all drank off their ass in Valhalla!

^^^Christianity versus Norse gods and you would choose Odin...

Telling...

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

[OctoberRust]

Originally Posted by happyguy

^^^Christianity versus Norse gods and you would choose Odin...

Telling...

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

Odin's son carried a hammer.

Your god's son was nailed to a cross.

You do the math....

I don't have any time for imaginary friends that are weak. Victory or Valhalla!