Christian who relies on God vs guns - Page 2

Lowjiber · 12-06-2012, 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colubrid

I thought this was a gun forum?

It is.

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgutie35

After reading the the whole chapter, I realized that Jesus was giving them instructions about how they were going to spread the gospel after his crucifixion, at the same time he was prophetizing what was about to happen, and also at the same time was warning the apostles about the spiritual battle that was about to take place. This of course confused the apostles who misunderstood Jesus and were under the assumpion that they were suppose to rescue Him from being arrested, even though Jesus himself told them these things were suppose to happen and the apostles were not suppose to try to stop it, that is why when Peter cuts the ear of one of the servants of the high priests, Jesus orders Peter to put his sword down and heals the servant. When Simon Peter tells Jesus " behold there are two swords Lord" Jesus realized they did not understand Him and just gives up by saying " OK, that will be sufficient"

Of course I don't think he actually rolled his eyes, but I would have!

So basically since nobody on a gun forum refuted what she said. She is correct!

Brucev · 12-06-2012, 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colubrid

I recently met a christian woman who is right on doctrinally about God. but then this subject came up and i need our brethens help to respond (in a short sentance). Here is what she wrote:

"Lol. I don't lock the doors of my car which is basically brand new and it's never been stolen. I've been around rape and never been raped. I've been 10 steps from a shooting and was never shot. I was at the scene of a stabbing and never been stabbed. Who do you think prevented those things!? Not my gun. :-P"

There are many people who do not obsess about personal security. That is entirely reasonable. They do not live in a metropolitan war zone contested by multiple hostile gangs. In fact, I have church members who see no need for obsessive multiple security steps to protect themselves and their property as little to no criminal activity occurs in our area. I also have a couple of church members who usually have a revolver in their pocket. They see things differently. Fine.

Jesus did not leave a lot of leeway for us in following his commands. The idea that Christians would all go around armed to the teeth and ready to fight violence with violence is simply not supportable in Scripture.

In first sending disciples out to prepare the way for his preaching ministry, Jesus instructed them to depend entirely upon local hospitality. In the second instance, things had changed. There was increasing hostility to the ministry of Christ that would ultimately lead to his crucifixion. In that instances Jesus told his disciples to carry necessary items. A couple of the common type swords were in their possession. He said these were sufficient. In what sense? To protect them? Obviously not. To fulfill Scripture as in Isaiah, etc., yes.

There is no rational or legitimate way to get around what Jesus said about how believers are to respond to wrong, violence, etc. He modeled that lifestyle. He called all who follow him to do exactly the same. It is hard. The very fact that even toward the end and even in the Garden of Gethsemane disciples were armed shows that they themselves struggled with his command. It is not different for believers today.

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 06:26

Th

Quote:

ere is no rational or legitimate way to get around what Jesus said about how believers are to respond to wrong, violence, etc. He modeled that lifestyle. He called all who follow him to do exactly the same. It is hard. The very fact that even toward the end and even in the Garden of Gethsemane disciples were armed shows that they themselves struggled with his command. It is not different for believers today.

amen

neon · 12-06-2012, 06:52

Colubrid

There is no rational or legitimate way to get around what Jesus said about how believers are to respond to wrong, violence, etc. He modeled that lifestyle. He called all who follow him to do exactly the same. It is hard. The very fact that even toward the end and even in the Garden of Gethsemane disciples were armed shows that they themselves struggled with his command. It is not different for believers today

Answer:Molly:
When Jesus said to turn the other cheek he was referring to a slap in the face or an insult. He saved the women who committed adultery by laying out the sin of the one's who wanted to stone her to death. He wants those who love him to protect themselves. Jesus was sent to earth to die for our sins.

The world we live in is a dangerous place. shootings are a daily occurrence. Should anyone be a target just because they love God and are a Christian? It is our God given right to be able to protect ourselves.

Read: 1 Timothy 5:8
"But If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Molly

+++
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you:

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad220860

What do true atheist believe happens to them when hey die?

We cease to exist. Our minds cease to work and our bodies decay unless unnatural measures are taken.

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by fgutie35

After reading the the whole chapter, I realized that Jesus was giving them instructions about how they were going to spread the gospel after his crucifixion, at the same time he was prophetizing what was about to happen, and also at the same time was warning the apostles about the spiritual battle that was about to take place. This of course confused the apostles who misunderstood Jesus and were under the assumpion that they were suppose to rescue Him from being arrested, even though Jesus himself told them these things were suppose to happen and the apostles were not suppose to try to stop it, that is why when Peter cuts the ear of one of the servants of the high priests, Jesus orders Peter to put his sword down and heals the servant. When Simon Peter tells Jesus " behold there are two swords Lord" Jesus realized they did not understand Him and just gives up by saying " OK, that will be sufficient"

Of course I don't think he actually rolled his eyes, but I would have!

Good post.

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colubrid

So basically since nobody on a gun forum refuted what she said. She is correct!

From a Biblical perspective, yes. Our entire penal system is a violation of the New Testament perspective. We're supposed to trust the Lord to give us everything we need.

The Lord's Prayer only asks for daily bread. Everything else concerns keeping right with the Lord. Temporal needs are of no concern. Your health and wealth are of no concern. That only makes sense if you believe Jesus is coming right back. Otherwise, it's unrealistic.

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 07:57

If you really feel you're going to Heaven when you die, why would you do anything to prolong your life?

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by muscogee

If you really feel you're going to Heaven when you die, why would you do anything to prolong your life?

Well the writings of the early christian that were being fed to the lions are around and they actually seemed very disspointed when they were not fed to the lions. They understood doing things for His glory and it is not about us as we are insignifcant.

dbcooper · 12-06-2012, 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roering

Well, Christ told Peter to take a sword so I carry a modern day equivalent when I can.

He also said to turn the other cheek

Glock36shooter · 12-06-2012, 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by neon

When Jesus said to turn the other cheek he was referring to a slap in the face or an insult.

No he wasn't. He said to not resist evil. Meaning to take no action against those who would harm you. To give to anyone who asks, to walk two miles with those that FORCE you to walk one. And to love your enemy. This was Christ's philosophy and it had nothing to do with striking back or defending one's self.

Quote:

He saved the women who committed adultery by laying out the sin of the one's who wanted to stone her to death.

But not with a gun or sword. With words.

Quote:

He wants those who love him to protect themselves. Jesus was sent to earth to die for our sins.

Got any scriptural basis for that?

Quote:

It is our God given right to be able to protect ourselves.

Got any scriptural basis for this?

Quote:

Read: 1 Timothy 5:8
"But If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

This has nothing to do with self defense. This is instruction for how to treat one another especially family. You're taking it WAY out of context and twisting it to agree with your world view. 5-16 are about the treatment of widows. I never knew how dishonest a christian you were.

Glock36shooter · 12-06-2012, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbcooper

He also said to turn the other cheek

Yes, I wanna hear Roering's thoughts on Matthew 5:38-48. I consider him to be one of the level headed and reasonable believers in this forum.

SDGlock23 · 12-06-2012, 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colubrid

I recently met a christian woman who is right on doctrinally about God. but then this subject came up and i need our brethens help to respond (in a short sentance). Here is what she wrote:

"Lol. I don't lock the doors of my car which is basically brand new and it's never been stolen. I've been around rape and never been raped. I've been 10 steps from a shooting and was never shot. I was at the scene of a stabbing and never been stabbed. Who do you think prevented those things!? Not my gun. :-P"

My way of looking at it is this, God can do much more for me, or any of us, than we can with our guns. He can, and does, prevent things from happening to His children (those who put their faith in Him), and even those that aren't His, although they don't acknowledge it.

He can protect me much better than I can protect myself. Nothing will happen to me unless it's His will, and if it's His will, nothing I do will prevent that. But it's all good, that way I get to go on to Glory with my Savior.

I also believe in the ability to defend myself, and there is nothing unscriptural about that. The Lord knows I will defend myself if I have to, but I think He takes care of that for me beforehand.

The fight isn't physical, it's spiritual. Everything that manifests in the physical is the result of something that has happened in the spiritual realm. If we walk according to the Spirit, we are more than conquerors and don't have to worry about a thing. A child of God can win the fight before it ever happens.

fgutie35 · 12-06-2012, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colubrid

So basically since nobody on a gun forum refuted what she said. She is correct!

It is hard to give you a straight answer because on one side, you are going to have some members meritting all the "coincidences" to Luck or chance. On the other side you will have members arguing that because of her faith and trust in God is that she was shielded thru all those ordeals. It comes down to what the specific person in question believed at the time those events were happening. To give you an example, lets say I'm driving down the street, then the vehicle infront of me gets T-bone by a semi. Depending on the type of person that I am, Im going to analyze the tragic event as a) Thanks God my guardian angel was with me, or else that could have been me. or B) damm I'm soo Lucky I hesitated to pass that guy over, or else, that would have been me. So you see. It all depends the prism that you view things thru.
I do believe there are forces at play we humans cannot see nor comprehend, but even then, it will hard to call that one.

JAS104 · 12-06-2012, 09:58

Luke 22:36

Then said He unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one"

Glock36shooter · 12-06-2012, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAS104

Luke 22:36

Then said He unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one"

Yes we've been over this a hundred times... read the thread.

Glock36shooter · 12-06-2012, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

I also believe in the ability to defend myself, and there is nothing unscriptural about that.

Yes there is. You aren't trusting God to protect you. You are trusting in his will. If it is his will that you die in a mugging then your gun will not protect you. If it is his will that no harm come to you, your gun is unnecessary. So by bringing it "Just in Case" shows your lack of faith in his will. You mean to try and prevent his will if it is for you to die in a mugging... and you mean to hedge your bets just in case he doesn't protect you. It demonstrates a clear lack of faith in God.

Quote:

The Lord knows I will defend myself if I have to, but I think He takes care of that for me beforehand.

Then carrying a gun is doubting his providence.

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDGlock23

He can protect me much better than I can protect myself. Nothing will happen to me unless it's His will, and if it's His will, nothing I do will prevent that. But it's all good, that way I get to go on to Glory with my Savior.

I also believe in the ability to defend myself, and there is nothing unscriptural about that. The Lord knows I will defend myself if I have to

Why? Are you afraid of dying?

clayinva · 12-06-2012, 12:14

You can love your enemy, doesn't mean that you have to lay down and die. What if your having a gun means you can save someone else ? I trust Christ with my soul but if somebody tries to invade my house I'm reaching for a glock or a Smith and Wesson not a Bible.

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Glock36shooter · 12-06-2012, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayinva

You can love your enemy, doesn't mean that you have to lay down and die. What if your having a gun means you can save someone else ? I trust Christ with my soul but if somebody tries to invade my house I'm reaching for a glock or a Smith and Wesson not a Bible.

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So you don't trust God's plan then? If you did you wouldn't have tools to attempt to escape it.

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glock36shooter

So you don't trust God's plan then? If you did you wouldn't have tools to attempt to escape it.

WOW! I learned a lot here.

I was actually the one on the other side of the fence. but now hearing you and this girl i was debating with i am rethinking my whole walk with God. not just about guns.

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 16:09

So glock36shooter,
Why do you hav a gun then?

i take it is a G36 you like. iI just sold mine. i had 3 before and keep coming back to that model.. i just like guns. The way they are made. i don't look at them as killing machines.

BTW the girl i am talking to is single and so am I. So we are speaking to work out our differences in what we agree and don't agree on.

Colubrid · 12-06-2012, 16:10

Same question for you SDGlock23. Why do you have a gun then?

muscogee · 12-06-2012, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayinva

You can love your enemy, doesn't mean that you have to lay down and die. What if your having a gun means you can save someone else ? I trust Christ with my soul but if somebody tries to invade my house I'm reaching for a glock or a Smith and Wesson not a Bible.

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"Everyone wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die." Seems hypocritical to me.