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Old 12-06-2012, 13:22   #151
Schabesbert
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Now then, please explain to me why they would bother having a census in the winter?
Maybe, just maybe, they didn't care much about the convenience and comfort of the populace?

BTW, I would much rather travel in the winter in that area than in the summer.

Edited to add:
Current temerature in Jerusalem: 16degC and fair.
I.e., nice traveling weather.
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:27   #152
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Maybe, just maybe, they didn't care much about the convenience and comfort of the populace?

BTW, I would much rather travel in the winter in that area than in the summer.
Maybe, just maybe, they'd actually like the census to be accurate, so they can tax the population as much as possible, and make sure they're getting the right amount of money. So they'd want to make sure the census was as easy as possible to fill out.

If you were being paid $100 per person, would you want to do it in the winter when you can for sure get 1,000 people, or would you want to do it during the spring when you can for sure get 10,000 people?

And you don't have to worry about traveling during the summer, that's why it was done in the spring, to make sure that people didn't have to travel so far when it was super hot out.
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:28   #153
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Edited to add:
Current temerature in Jerusalem: 16degC and fair.
I.e., nice traveling weather.
Except we're not talking about Jerusalem today, we're talking about Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. And if people are right and global warming exists, then don't you think it's entirely possible that the climate has changed over the 2,000 years? And that it would be quite a bit colder back then?
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:32   #154
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Except we're not talking about Jerusalem today, we're talking about Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. And if people are right and global warming exists, then don't you think it's entirely possible that the climate has changed over the 2,000 years? And that it would be quite a bit colder back then?
Or quite a bit warmer?
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:38   #155
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Maybe, just maybe, they'd actually like the census to be accurate, so they can tax the population as much as possible, and make sure they're getting the right amount of money. So they'd want to make sure the census was as easy as possible to fill out.
So, you DIDN'T read my citation? Figures. You keep spending a lot of effort to avoid any inconvienent facts.

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And you don't have to worry about traveling during the summer, that's why it was done in the spring, to make sure that people didn't have to travel so far when it was super hot out.
And yet, the Jewish people did it all the time. In addition to the three commanded Pilgrimage Festivals, many, many Jews traveled to Jerusalem for Hanukkah. In fact, Jesus Himself did so.
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:43   #156
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Or quite a bit warmer?
So what do you believe in, global cooling or global warming? Because you're the first one I've ever heard mention global cooling.

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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
So, you DIDN'T read my citation? Figures. You keep spending a lot of effort to avoid any inconvienent facts.


And yet, the Jewish people did it all the time. In addition to the three commanded Pilgrimage Festivals, many, many Jews traveled to Jerusalem for Hanukkah. In fact, Jesus Himself did so.
The jewish people did it for religious reasons. The census is not a religious reason, and therefore does not have anywhere near as strong of a pull as a religious reason would. If you really think religious people would have as strong of a pull to follow a census than they would have as strong of a pull to follow their religion, then there really isn't any hope for you.

And read the article you linked about the census? Why would I do that. You automatically ignored both religious articles that I posted, claimed they didn't matter, because you know so much more than they did. I didn't see your name on that article, so why should I believe it? Obviously you know way more than the person who wrote that article, so there is no way they can be as right as you are.
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Old 12-06-2012, 13:59   #157
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So what do you believe in, global cooling or global warming? Because you're the first one I've ever heard mention global cooling.
Seriously? You are seriously ill-informed.

I could point you to a number of sources, but you'd just ignore them.

Even IF there is global warming (probably not AGW, though), it has NOT been monolithic even over the past 2,000 years.

I guess you've never heard of the The Medieval Warm Period (MWP), or the Medieval Climate Optimum, or the "Little Ice Age."

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The jewish people did it for religious reasons. The census is not a religious reason, and therefore does not have anywhere near as strong of a pull as a religious reason would. If you really think religious people would have as strong of a pull to follow a census than they would have as strong of a pull to follow their religion, then there really isn't any hope for you.
Amazing rationalizations for your lack of supporting evidence.

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And read the article you linked about the census? Why would I do that.
Perhaps to cure your indomitable ignorance?

I guess that's too much to ask. You prefer your bliss, apparently.

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You automatically ignored both religious articles that I posted, claimed they didn't matter, because you know so much more than they did.
But I read them. YOU dismiss things out of blissful ignorance, without reading them. Or asking someone to read them to you.
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Old 12-06-2012, 14:13   #158
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Seriously? You are seriously ill-informed.

I could point you to a number of sources, but you'd just ignore them.

Even IF there is global warming (probably not AGW, though), it has NOT been monolithic even over the past 2,000 years.

I guess you've never heard of the The Medieval Warm Period (MWP), or the Medieval Climate Optimum, or the "Little Ice Age."
I was being facetious.

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Amazing rationalizations for your lack of supporting evidence.
If you don't know how strong of a drive religion can be, then it doesn't matter how much proof I show you, you won't believe it.

Just look at the suicide bombers in the middle east who believe they'll get 72 virgins in heaven for being a martyr. Only a religious drive could have someone do that.

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Perhaps to cure your indomitable ignorance?

I guess that's too much to ask. You prefer your bliss, apparently.
I prefer my intelligence over my desire to believe in some book that was written by man, but claimed to be the word of God.

Does that mean I should claim JK Rowling is a God because she wrote the Harry Potter books, and there's lots of magic in them?


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But I read them. YOU dismiss things out of blissful ignorance, without reading them. Or asking someone to read them to you.
And yet you offered no proof as to why they weren't reputable.

And I don't dismiss them out of blissful ignorance, I dismiss them because it's written by the church to try and cover up proof of their own fallacy. If you heard Person A claim one thing to Person B, and then claim the complete opposite thing to Person C, would you believe their explanation to Person D of why they said two different things? Or would you believe that it's possible they could have made it up, and that they might tell Person E the exact opposite of what they told Person D?

I dismiss them because I can actually think for myself, I can form my own judgements. I don't just take what someone else says as law, and I especially don't take what they say as law when it's proven to their face that they're making stuff up and that they can't keep their story straight.

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Old 12-06-2012, 14:50   #159
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
If you don't know how strong of a drive religion can be, then it doesn't matter how much proof I show you, you won't believe it.
And defying the ruler, who wouldn't hesitate to have you tortured and killed for any offense, isn't a strong drive?


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And yet you offered no proof as to why they weren't reputable.
True, because I don't believe an appeal to authority is any argument. Attacking the author's credentials is far less important than showing that their statements are factually suspect or incorrect, as I had done.

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And I don't dismiss them out of blissful ignorance, I dismiss them because it's written by the church to try and cover up proof of their own fallacy.
See? Thos unable to show that the facts presented are incorrect will instead try to denigrate the writers' motives.

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If you heard Person A claim one thing to Person B, and then claim the complete opposite thing to Person C, would you believe their explanation to Person D of why they said two different things? Or would you believe that it's possible they could have made it up, and that they might tell Person E the exact opposite of what they told Person D?
Actually, if it were important to me, I would look at the FACTS rather than beliefs, as you seem intent on doing.

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I dismiss them because I can actually think for myself,
Not very well, apparently.

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I can form my own judgements.
Only about which source you believe more, apparently, according to your own words.

In other words, you act out of blind faith.

Pity.
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Old 12-06-2012, 17:12   #160
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Maybe, just maybe, they'd actually like the census to be accurate, so they can tax the population as much as possible, and make sure they're getting the right amount of money. So they'd want to make sure the census was as easy as possible to fill out.

If you were being paid $100 per person, would you want to do it in the winter when you can for sure get 1,000 people, or would you want to do it during the spring when you can for sure get 10,000 people?

And you don't have to worry about traveling during the summer, that's why it was done in the spring, to make sure that people didn't have to travel so far when it was super hot out.
Why wouldn't they have their tax collectors conduct the census where they lived. Why disrupt commerce by having people travel to their birthplace? Can you imagine the chaos if everyone in the U.S. had to travel their their birthplaces every ten years for a census? What about the people who weren't born in Israel? What about the Greeks and Egyptians living there? The census idea doesn't make sense.
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Old 12-06-2012, 17:23   #161
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
That's unknown; my opinion, though, is that the Magi visited after the presentation.
How can that be? The Magi visited Bethlehem. Why would Joseph, Mary and Jesus have gone back to Bethlehem after visiting the Temple? In fact, doesn't Luke 2:39 tell us that they didn't?
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Good question. Here's another one: if there WERE martians, what would they eat for lunch?
Sorry, I know how having Church teaching and dogma challenged upsets you, but perhaps you could make the effort to comport yourself like an adult, just for the purpose of the discussion.
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One can only speculate, but it's possible that the census hadn't yet been completed, and so they were expected to stay put.
Then why did they travel to Jerusalem? Why doesn't either Matthew or Luke detail a return trip to Bethlehem after the events at the Temple?
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Why?
Why wouldn't an authoritarian ruler keep track of what was going on in his kingdom?
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How do you know that? It could have been the following year.
Because that would push Jesus' timeline back even further and raise greater problems with events who's dates are known, like the death of Herod and the administration of Pilate. If only there were a firm event, like a census, to set the dates for us.
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We don't know. Do you?
No, but then I'm not the one citing them as actual historical events.
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You seem to be making a slew of assumptions, without even realizing it. This shows sloppy thinking.
I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just questioning how one family could simultaneously have returned home to Nazareth, gone to Bethlehem to be met by the Magi, fled to Egypt, and have visited the Temple every year.
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Yes, AM. I am also embarassed for you, as well as TK.
Imagine how we feel, being forced to engage with someone who refuses to think but relies on regurgitated dogma in place of objective analysis. It's even more disappointing to find you so dependent on insults in place of actually responding coherently to the objections that have been raised.
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:27   #162
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Why wouldn't they have their tax collectors conduct the census where they lived. Why disrupt commerce by having people travel to their birthplace? Can you imagine the chaos if everyone in the U.S. had to travel their their birthplaces every ten years for a census? What about the people who weren't born in Israel? What about the Greeks and Egyptians living there? The census idea doesn't make sense.
And yet, we have historical evidence saying they did just that. Perhaps they didn't have your wisdom.

Also, IF you had read my linked article, you'd have seen that the census was not necessarily for the purposes of taxation.
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:34   #163
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And yet, we have historical evidence saying they did just that. Perhaps they didn't have your wisdom.

Also, IF you had read my linked article, you'd have seen that the census was not necessarily for the purposes of taxation.
And we have historical evidence that the census took place in 6 AD, and we have biblical evidence that Jesus was born while the census was being taken.
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:37   #164
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How can that be? The Magi visited Bethlehem. Why would Joseph, Mary and Jesus have gone back to Bethlehem after visiting the Temple? In fact, doesn't Luke 2:39 tell us that they didn't?
No, Luke just tells us that AFTER they had fulfilled everything according to the Law, the returned to Galilee.

It would be quite remarkable that within 8 days they would have been visited by the Magi, travelled to Egypt, waited for the death of Herod, and then returned.

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Sorry, I know how having Church teaching and dogma challenged upsets you,
Not at all. But I rather prefer to use logic, for which you have demonstrated a singular disdain (see your objection above for just one example).

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but perhaps you could make the effort to comport yourself like an adult, just for the purpose of the discussion.
Alas, that would make one of us.

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Then why did they travel to Jerusalem?
To fulfill what was required by the Law.

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Why doesn't either Matthew or Luke detail a return trip to Bethlehem after the events at the Temple?
They don't provide every detail.

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Why wouldn't an authoritarian ruler keep track of what was going on in his kingdom?
You'll have to ask him.

Perhaps their hidden cameras weren't working properly.
You've GOT to quit placing your expectations, derived from a highly technological worldview, onto a time where communications consisted of a letter delivered by hand and camel.

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Because that would push Jesus' timeline back even further and raise greater problems with events who's dates are known, like the death of Herod and the administration of Pilate. If only there were a firm event, like a census, to set the dates for us.
Another one who didn't read the linked article.

What problems would that cause, exactly?

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No, but then I'm not the one citing them as actual historical events.
I see. To cite a historical event, one needs to be able to explain EVERYTHING around that event?

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I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just questioning how one family could simultaneously have returned home to Nazareth, gone to Bethlehem to be met by the Magi, fled to Egypt, and have visited the Temple every year.

You don't even SEE the assumptions you're making???

Or you're denying them.

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Imagine how we feel, being forced to engage with someone who refuses to think but relies on regurgitated dogma in place of objective analysis. It's even more disappointing to find you so dependent on insults in place of actually responding coherently to the objections that have been raised.
Was that meant as irony? Complaining about insults THROUGH insults?
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Old 12-08-2012, 00:08   #165
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
No, Luke just tells us that AFTER they had fulfilled everything according to the Law, the returned to Galilee.
Exactly. Took Jesus to the Temple, made the sacrifices, etc. according the Law, then went back to Galilee, not Bethlehem.
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It would be quite remarkable that within 8 days they would have been visited by the Magi, travelled to Egypt, waited for the death of Herod, and then returned.
It would have been. Remind me, where does Luke mention the flight to Egypt?
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Not at all. But I rather prefer to use logic, for which you have demonstrated a singular disdain (see your objection above for just one example).
That's an example of logic to you? Accepting all the accounts as completely accurate and then forcing the timeline to fit despite the obvious inconsistencies such as one reporting a flight to Egypt while another tells of returning to Galilee?
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Alas, that would make one of us.
Have I insulted you or made an attempt to belittle your intelligence? That seems to be the only tactic you have at hand these days, and it consistently fails you.
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To fulfill what was required by the Law.
You need to make a decision on your speculation, were they expected to stay put or not?
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They don't provide every detail.
They apparently gloss over fairly major details in the version you're endorsing, especially considering Luke does explicitly report they fulfilled what was required by the Law (which as you point out took place in Jerusalem) and then returned to Galilee.

Are you taking the position that the full account is in fact, "They took Jesus to Jerusalem, presented him at the Temple, made the required sacrifices, then returned to Bethlehem, were visited by the Magi, fled to Egypt, then returned to Galilee" but Luke only managed to write, "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth."
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You'll have to ask him.
It's odd that you seem so certain about the truth and accuracy of these accounts yet are so cavalier about the gaping holes in them.
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Perhaps their hidden cameras weren't working properly.
You've GOT to quit placing your expectations, derived from a highly technological worldview, onto a time where communications consisted of a letter delivered by hand and camel.
Is it that hard to accept that the King would have agents in the Temple? That they would report back on people declaring infants to be the Messiah?
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Another one who didn't read the linked article.
No, I read it, and doubt it would have even been convincing in 1910, but if you'd like to discuss the specific issues with the supposed census, I'm game.
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What problems would that cause, exactly?
Why don't we deal with one set of inconsistencies before moving on to a whole new group?
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I see. To cite a historical event, one needs to be able to explain EVERYTHING around that event?
I said no such thing, but demonstrating that the event actually happened does seem like an important first step.
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You don't even SEE the assumptions you're making???

Or you're denying them.
Again, I'm not making assumptions, though you're free to detail what it is you think I'm assuming. You, on the other hand, are assuming that all events described in the Gospels are accurate accounts of events, despite the difficulty of reconciling them into any coherent chronology.
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Was that meant as irony? Complaining about insults THROUGH insults?
Not intended as an insult, but rather as a description of your behavior on this forum as of late. If you find it insulting, perhaps you should reexamine the behavior.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:38   #166
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Why wouldn't they have their tax collectors conduct the census where they lived. Why disrupt commerce by having people travel to their birthplace? Can you imagine the chaos if everyone in the U.S. had to travel their their birthplaces every ten years for a census? What about the people who weren't born in Israel? What about the Greeks and Egyptians living there? The census idea doesn't make sense.
Yeah, because the way we do our census now (the honor system) makes so much more sense than that.
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Old 12-10-2012, 16:17   #167
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Exactly. Took Jesus to the Temple, made the sacrifices, etc. according the Law, then went back to Galilee, not Bethlehem.
You get partal credit, but again, you're showing your assumptions.

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It would have been. Remind me, where does Luke mention the flight to Egypt?
Are you relying on an argument from silence again?

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That's an example of logic to you? Accepting all the accounts as completely accurate and then forcing the timeline to fit despite the obvious inconsistencies such as one reporting a flight to Egypt while another tells of returning to Galilee?
Ahh, yes you are using an argument from silence.

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You need to make a decision on your speculation, were they expected to stay put or not?
They were not nailed to the ground.
Where have I speculated that they couldn't have traveled from Bethlehem to Jerusalem? It's only about 6 miles!

Or, is this another of your assumptions?

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They apparently gloss over fairly major details in the version you're endorsing, especially considering Luke does explicitly report they fulfilled what was required by the Law (which as you point out took place in Jerusalem) and then returned to Galilee.
Yes, Luke skips over this event.

So what?

Quote:
Are you taking the position that the full account is in fact, "They took Jesus to Jerusalem, presented him at the Temple, made the required sacrifices, then returned to Bethlehem, were visited by the Magi, fled to Egypt, then returned to Galilee" but Luke only managed to write, "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth."
Seems perfectly plausible.

Each writer had to skip some major events. They didn't have word processors with terabyte hard drives. John even "skips" the Last Supper!!

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I see. To cite a historical event, one needs to be able to explain EVERYTHING around that event?
I said no such thing,
No, you didn't say it directly, but the implication is certainly strong. Your entire argument is built around this.

You don't seem to EVER state something outright. It's almost as if you know that if you did, in the light of day the argument would appear, well, ridiculous.


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Not intended as an insult, but rather as a description of your behavior on this forum as of late. If you find it insulting, perhaps you should reexamine the behavior.
Not necessary, since your characterization is more accurate when applied to YOUR behavior than mine.
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Old 12-10-2012, 22:54   #168
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You get partal credit, but again, you're showing your assumptions.
I'm not assuming anything. I'm reading what the Gospel says. You're the one who has to make assumptions in an attempt to harmonize the accounts.
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Are you relying on an argument from silence again?
No, I'm relying on the reality that if there were a side trip to a different country in between the Temple and Jerusalem, it seems like something worth mentioning. Just like a trip to the Temple seems like something Matthew might have managed to find room to tell about in his account.
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Ahh, yes you are using an argument from silence.
No, I'm pointing out inconsistencies. That you're unwilling to address these inconsistencies tells us far more about your argument than it does about mine.
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They were not nailed to the ground.
Where have I speculated that they couldn't have traveled from Bethlehem to Jerusalem? It's only about 6 miles!
Didn't you claim earlier that this was the reason behind returning to Bethlehem (despite it not being mentioned in the Biblical account)? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the exact methodology and requirements for censuses that didn't happen. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the exact rules and parameters.
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Yes, Luke skips over this event.

So what?
So it's a reason to question the accuracy of the rest of the account, just as the events Matthew "skipped over" are a reason to question his account.
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Seems perfectly plausible.
Who's making assumptions now?
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Each writer had to skip some major events. They didn't have word processors with terabyte hard drives. John even "skips" the Last Supper!!
And Mark "skips" the whole of the nativity. Maybe that story hadn't been invented yet when he was writing.
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No, you didn't say it directly, but the implication is certainly strong. Your entire argument is built around this.
No, my argument is built around the fact that leaving out significant events in a supposed historical account is a legitimate reason to question that account. If one wrote a biography of Lincoln, leaving out the Civil War would be seen as something of an oversight. If we objectively evaluate the Gospel accounts, it becomes clear that many of the supposed events are included largely, if not solely, for the reason of making Jesus' life fulfill messianic prophecies. The fact that Luke and Matthew both attempt to provide an account of Jesus birth and early life yet share few details in common is grounds to question them both.
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You don't seem to EVER state something outright. It's almost as if you know that if you did, in the light of day the argument would appear, well, ridiculous.
Back to the insults already? I'm not surprised, given that the whole of your argument has to be "It's in the Bible, therefore it all has to be true", no matter how little sense it makes or how much the accounts have to be massaged to line up.
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Not necessary, since your characterization is more accurate when applied to YOUR behavior than mine.
I know you are but what am I? Really? And you accuse others of embarrassing themselves and childish behavior? By any chance are you also rubber while everyone else is glue?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:21   #169
Schabesbert
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
No, I'm relying on the reality that if there were a side trip to a different country in between the Temple and Jerusalem, it seems like something worth mentioning. Just like a trip to the Temple seems like something Matthew might have managed to find room to tell about in his account.
Nearly the definition of an argument from silence. But you deny it. Wierd.

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No, I'm pointing out inconsistencies. That you're unwilling to address these inconsistencies tells us far more about your argument than it does about mine.
The only inconsistency is that one recounting includes some details, another doesn't but includes others. So, let ME point out that using this to try to prove your point is ... wait for it ... an argument from silence.

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Didn't you claim earlier that this was the reason behind returning to Bethlehem (despite it not being mentioned in the Biblical account)? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the exact methodology and requirements for censuses that didn't happen. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the exact rules and parameters.
That's just it -- we don't KNOW the exact rules and parameters. YOU are assuming that this means that Luke's or Matthews account is incorrect; I'm saying that these accounts are plausible given that we DON'T know the exact rules(and I am unwilling to ASSUME what they "must" be).

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So it's a reason to question the accuracy of the rest of the account, just as the events Matthew "skipped over" are a reason to question his account.
Because we don't know the exact rules, that's a "reason to question the accuracy of the rest of the account?" How is that NOT an argument from silence?

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Who's making assumptions now?
As I've pointed out, whoever is posting under the name "Animal Mother."

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And Mark "skips" the whole of the nativity. Maybe that story hadn't been invented yet when he was writing.
Or, maybe, that wasn't the subject he was trying to discuss.

You haven't mentioned your objections to the Virgin Birth in this discussion. Maybe I can assume that you believe in the Virgin Birth ...


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No, my argument is built around the fact that leaving out significant events in a supposed historical account is a legitimate reason to question that account.
And I'm saying that it is not a reason. Certainly not a logical reason, but perhaps for you it's an emotional reason.

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If one wrote a biography of Lincoln, leaving out the Civil War would be seen as something of an oversight.
I've read biographies which leave out extremely important events, primarily because they weren't the focus of the biography.

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If we objectively evaluate the Gospel accounts, it becomes clear that many of the supposed events are included largely, if not solely, for the reason of making Jesus' life fulfill messianic prophecies.
The events may be recounted to show that Jesus' life DOES fulfill messianic prophecies. Why not? If I wanted to demonstrate that Obama is, say, pro-abortion, I might cite those events in his life which indicate this. I don't consider that odd, but then again, I'm not searching for excuses to disbelieve the Gospels.

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The fact that Luke and Matthew both attempt to provide an account of Jesus birth and early life yet share few details in common is grounds to question them both.
That's not logical.

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You don't seem to EVER state something outright. It's almost as if you know that if you did, in the light of day the argument would appear, well, ridiculous.
Back to the insults already?
I'm sorry, but I just stated a fact; it wasn't meant to be an insult. It's just true. I thought you were aware of that fact.

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I'm not surprised, given that the whole of your argument has to be "It's in the Bible, therefore it all has to be true", no matter how little sense it makes or how much the accounts have to be massaged to line up.
Now you're making stuff up. Again.

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I know you are but what am I? Really? And you accuse others of embarrassing themselves and childish behavior? By any chance are you also rubber while everyone else is glue?
Nope, just pointing out how you're projecting. If you wish to view projection, a very real psychological effect, which you're demonstrating, as childish, then go for it.

It shows your penchant for ridicule as yet another defense mechanism for your very poorly-formed arguments.
Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people.
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Old 12-11-2012, 22:06   #170
Animal Mother
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
Nearly the definition of an argument from silence. But you deny it. Wierd.
I'm not sure how to explain it to you any better. I'm not making the argument that events didn't happen because they're not mentioned, which would be an argument from silence. I'm saying that the discrepancies between the gospel accounts are grounds to question them both. Obviously this is insufficient for you, as are the two completely different genealogies offered, which makes one wonder what would be necessary for you to conclude that at least one account is inaccurate.
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The only inconsistency is that one recounting includes some details, another doesn't but includes others.
And that is a fairly major inconsistency, despite your desperate efforts to gloss over the fact.
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So, let ME point out that using this to try to prove your point is ... wait for it ... an argument from silence.
Are you under the impression that if you repeat something enough times it magically becomes true?
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That's just it -- we don't KNOW the exact rules and parameters. YOU are assuming that this means that Luke's or Matthews account is incorrect; I'm saying that these accounts are plausible given that we DON'T know the exact rules(and I am unwilling to ASSUME what they "must" be).
I'm not assuming anything, I'm pointing out that there are numerous inconsistencies and reasonable questions to ask based on those inconsistencies. You, on the other hand, refuse to ask any questions and prefer to accept the accounts uncritically and sling insults at those who dare differ.
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Because we don't know the exact rules, that's a "reason to question the accuracy of the rest of the account?" How is that NOT an argument from silence?
The inconsistencies between the accounts are reasons to question them. The only rules I referenced were the rules for non-existent censuses, a question you haven't answered.
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As I've pointed out, whoever is posting under the name "Animal Mother."
And we're back to "I know you are but what am I"
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Or, maybe, that wasn't the subject he was trying to discuss.
Perhaps, do we have evidence either way?
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You haven't mentioned your objections to the Virgin Birth in this discussion. Maybe I can assume that you believe in the Virgin Birth ...
I'm sure you can, you do seem to assume many things for which there is no evidence and even more for which there is contrary evidence.
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And I'm saying that it is not a reason. Certainly not a logical reason, but perhaps for you it's an emotional reason.
Let me see if I follow your reasoning. No where in any of the gospels is it mentioned that Jesus was a ninja, therefore he MUST have been a ninja. Do I have your reasoning about right?
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I've read biographies which leave out extremely important events, primarily because they weren't the focus of the biography.
Isn't the supposed position of Christ as Messiah the focus of these biographies?
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The events may be recounted to show that Jesus' life DOES fulfill messianic prophecies.
They may be, but there's no real evidence to give one position strength over the other, and a number of reasons to question the accounts, despite your denials.
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Why not? If I wanted to demonstrate that Obama is, say, pro-abortion, I might cite those events in his life which indicate this. I don't consider that odd, but then again, I'm not searching for excuses to disbelieve the Gospels.
No, you're refusing to accept any questions about them, and then flinging insults because you objections don't have a rational basis.
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That's not logical.
Of course it is, to anyone willing to engage in rational and objective consideration.
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I'm sorry, but I just stated a fact; it wasn't meant to be an insult. It's just true. I thought you were aware of that fact.
I've explicitly stated my arguments repeatedly. You've responded with "I know you are but what am I" and "is not".
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Now you're making stuff up. Again.
If I'm wrong, why don't you try composing a response based on reason rather than insult. For variety, if nothing else.
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Nope, just pointing out how you're projecting. If you wish to view projection, a very real psychological effect, which you're demonstrating, as childish, then go for it.
You accuse me of projection, yet all you manage to do is accuse me of the very behaviors you seem to be unable to break.
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It shows your penchant for ridicule as yet another defense mechanism for your very poorly-formed arguments.
You would prefer I substitute "is not" and " Nuh-uh" as you do? Perhaps we should simply agree to end the discussion, if that's all you have to offer.
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Last edited by Animal Mother; 12-11-2012 at 22:08..
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