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Old 12-07-2012, 13:34   #61
Bren
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Its as simple as this: We are, or should be a capitalist system.

The top 2% are (obviously) good at aggregating CAPITAL on a scale that can fund investments in factories and storefronts that give people JOBS. They are also efficient investors and users of that capital, more so than the government that would poach that money to little effect…


The top 10% in this country provide 70% of the government's revenue. The rich ARE paying their fare share, and the share of quite a few people who are paying NOTHING. So, how much is enough, really?

If Obama got his way and raised the rates to where he wanted, the total extra take from the wealthiest folks would run the government for 8 days, and at the same time drain it from the private sector where it would actually do some good.

We do not have a revenue problem. We have a SPENDING problem. Reid pelosi and Obama squandered trillions, now they want to confiscate more to pay for their waste. Pound sand I say.

Well, I watched this much of that guy (and could take no more) - "I have started a lot of companies that hired a lot of people" - so he's talking about the rich, not the middle class, there. So why does he say the middle class are the "real job creators"? - because they buy products that make those companies profitable. Do you really need somebody to explain what's wrong with that? Seriously, just think about it. Who are the middle class with the money to sustain these companies started by the rich?

They're the &^%$#@F)(*&^% employees of those companies started by the rich, who have money to spend!!

In other words, that guy may be an idiot but, if not, he is intentionally lying to you to promote an agenda (or for profit).
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Old 12-07-2012, 13:37   #62
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Even though Nick Hanauer is spot on you won't get anywhere with that video. I've already tried. The denial is too strong here. His very good points will be ignored by most here in favor of the "the rich are job creators!" mantra that's been programmed into them.
You really didn't see the internal logic flaw in that guy's claim?

Quote:
Hanauer argued that the rich, people like him in other words, aren't responsible for the bulk of America’s job creation and therefore shouldn’t receive tax breaks to help them create jobs. Instead, he noted that middle-class consumers are more likely to create jobs by spending and spurring businesses to hire.
So think about it a minute - he argues that those people employed by the rich entrepreneurs are only employed because the middle class have the money to buy the products. Duh. We knew that, but his idea only makes sense if you stop without asking where the middle class got the money to buy the products that keep the businesses working to employee the people who work for a living...including the middle class who then have money to buy products from...never mid, if you need to be lead through that, you are either refusing to try to understand or you aren't able.
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Old 12-07-2012, 13:47   #63
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Well, I watched this much of that guy (and could take no more) - "I have started a lot of companies that hired a lot of people" - so he's talking about the rich, not the middle class, there. So why does he say the middle class are the "real job creators"? - because they buy products that make those companies profitable. Do you really need somebody to explain what's wrong with that? Seriously, just think about it. Who are the middle class with the money to sustain these companies started by the rich?

They're the &^%$#@F)(*&^% employees of those companies started by the rich, who have money to spend!!

In other words, that guy may be an idiot but, if not, he is intentionally lying to you to promote an agenda (or for profit).

Exactly and as disposable income goes down, jobs are lost creating less disposable income.

I would like to ask the people who believe this guy's "logic" where the capital come from for businesses to be started or for them to borrow money to expand or to help make it through the rough times?
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:43   #64
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There is no authoritarian right in American politics.

Authoritarian is on the left. Liberty is on the right.
The Neocons are about as authoritarian as anyone could stand. Bush after 9/11 became increasingly authoritarian as he implemented more "Homeland Security" measures.
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:46   #65
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Libertarians are far right, just to the left of anarchy
Gary Johnson is not an anarchist. Libertarians believe in free markets, private property, and capitalism.
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Old 12-07-2012, 15:14   #66
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The Neocons are about as authoritarian as anyone could stand. Bush after 9/11 became increasingly authoritarian as he implemented more "Homeland Security" measures.
Neocons are progressives


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Old 12-07-2012, 15:16   #67
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Gary Johnson is not an anarchist. Libertarians believe in free markets, private property, and capitalism.
We believe in more than that.

Keep moving GJ to the right and you have no government.




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Old 12-07-2012, 15:39   #68
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Neocons are progressives


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Authoritarian progressives.

Neocons and Obamanistas are just two sides of the same big-government anti-individual rights coin.
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Old 12-07-2012, 16:02   #69
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Authoritarian progressives.

Neocons and Obamanistas are just two sides of the same big-government anti-individual rights coin.
Yessir

See any marijuana thread or anything by JBnTX


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Old 12-07-2012, 20:57   #70
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I wonder how many here think that anarchy is just a synonym for chaos and disorder, or that communism and socialism are forms of government?
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Old 12-07-2012, 23:54   #71
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We believe in more than that.

Keep moving GJ to the right and you have no government.




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Oh, so libertarians want no government? Quasi-Anarchists.


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Old 12-07-2012, 23:56   #72
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I wonder how many here think that anarchy is just a synonym for chaos and disorder, or that communism and socialism are forms of government?
Great questions.


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Old 12-08-2012, 00:25   #73
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Oh, so libertarians want no government? Quasi-Anarchists.


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You're an attorney IIRC. That requires a lot of reading. I would have expected you to be better at it.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:34   #74
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You shoulda sent that one ta me.'08.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:27   #75
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Originally Posted by GAFinch View Post
Raising taxes isn't going to decrease the deficit or the debt. He wants it for three reasons:

1. Gin up class warfare among the masses.
2. Use a hugely unpopular idea to divide and conquer Republicans and/or ensure that the fiscal cliff happens.
3. Use the tax increases to pay for more stimulus plans (he's openly said this).

Any leader who appeals to the most base and craven qualities of his 'kingdom', greed & envy would have been thrown out of office by a moral society.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:00   #76
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You're an attorney IIRC. That requires a lot of reading. I would have expected you to be better at it.
It's impossible to reason with ideologues. Your expectations are unimportant, happy to disappoint. But reading you posts throughout GT I'm baffled by the lack of self awareness yet readiness to criticize others.


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Old 12-08-2012, 09:02   #77
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Any leader who appeals to the most base and craven qualities of his 'kingdom', greed & envy would have been thrown out of office by a moral society.
Clearly the methodology of the right: foster fear, classism and anger.


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Old 12-08-2012, 09:19   #78
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Even though Nick Hanauer is spot on you won't get anywhere with that video. I've already tried. The denial is too strong here. His very good points will be ignored by most here in favor of the "the rich are job creators!" mantra that's been programmed into them.
He bases his belief that the middle americans are the job creators, basically that they are the largest consumers. But without the ability to have money to consume.

The bottom line is that people need jobs, whether a rich dude or a guy just scraping by does it, someone has to create a job for the other guy to have so he can be middle class.

Not all business owners are rich.

But, the election is over, boehner is caving, taxes will likely go up for almost every worker to help pay for the non-working, and the federal government will still spend an extra 40+ cents for every dollar they take in.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:21   #79
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
It's more of a 2 dimensional thing.

Political Issues

You can go libertarian to the left or right or authoritarian to the left or right.
I know what you mean. Where are the guys on the right again?











Political Issues

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Old 12-08-2012, 09:38   #80
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It's impossible to reason with ideologues. Your expectations are unimportant, happy to disappoint. But reading you posts throughout GT I'm baffled by the lack of self awareness yet readiness to criticize others.


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So as a leftist ideologue you know yourself well and realize you can't be reasoned with. Congratulations.

Yet you read my post and completely misunderstood it. I would think an attorney would have better skills.

So to clarify: Yes, libertarians want no government. However, we realize some government is necessary to protect people, their property and their rights from others so that they may go about pursuing happiness.
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