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Old 12-05-2012, 16:00   #41
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Once again you seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to be victimized.

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If he doesn't want his children to be victimized, why did he allow other religions to be formed, and allow them to squabble between each other? He's supposed to be an all knowing, all powerful God. And if he's all knowing, then he should've been able to foresee exactly what would happen when he allowed people to make their own religions, instead of following the one he wanted. So if he doesn't want his children to be victimized, why does he allow them to be victimized? Why doesn't he kill all of the muslim extremists? Why doesn't he kill anyone who disagrees with christianity? Why doesn't he kill all the sinners and non-believers, if he doesn't want his children to be victimized?
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:22   #42
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
God tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
That is true. There are plenty of inconsistencies in the bible.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:06   #43
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I agree with every word of Arc Angel's post.
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Why do people like Bob Costas (and all of the other godless atheists we have around here) so completely fail to realize that it is neither the presence nor the absence of weapons - especially firearms - that guarantees the public safety?
Arc angel claims that all "godless atheists" "fail to realize that it is neither the presence nor the absence of weapons - especially firearms - that guarantees the public safety?"

Direct counterexample -> I am a "godless atheist" (yay for repetition), yet I own guns, and I disagree with Bob Costas.

Data to think about:
http://www.armedlutheran.us/anti-gun...-gun-churches/
http://christiangirlatcollege.wordpr...dnt-own-a-gun/

I submit to you that the reality is that many people are anti-gun, many people are pro-gun, and this does not automatically coincide with religion or lack thereof. Given this, if you agree with every word of Arc Angel's post, you are agreeing with statements that a few seconds thought and research would indicate are incorrect.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:19   #44
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But that's contradictory to Matthew 5:38-48.

You never see anyone touting the virtues of being a pacifist.
Matthew 5:38-48 has nothing to do with pacifism in the face of violence.
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:21   #45
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Matthew 5:38-48 has nothing to do with pacifism in the face of violence.
Sure it does. If someone strikes you... turn to them your other cheek. How is that not pacifism in the face of violence?

Can you find one instance where jesus struk first or even struck back in the face of violence?

I don't think you can reasonably conclude at all that Jesus ever instructed to use force or even the threat of force to protect one's self from an attack. And if that truly is what he meant in the "Get a sword" passage.. he's a hypocrite. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it go away.
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:07   #46
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Sure it does. If someone strikes you... turn to them your other cheek. How is that not pacifism in the face of violence?

Can you find one instance where jesus struk first or even struck back in the face of violence?

I don't think you can reasonably conclude at all that Jesus ever instructed to use force or even the threat of force to protect one's self from an attack. And if that truly is what he meant in the "Get a sword" passage.. he's a hypocrite. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it go away.
Perhaps if you are a subject in what has been the pussification of America you may see being slapped as a physical assault. Back then it was an act of insulting someone in a very public way. This is not the same as a physical attack.

I'll ask you again, what do you think the function of a sword was if not to attack or defend oneself from an attack?

To put it another way, if someone slaps you in the face, would you then draw your gun???

As for Jesus, no he did not strike back in the face of violence, he would either slip away from an angry mob or when sentenced to death he went willingly to it. He never instructed his disciples to lay down for anyone who was to attack them personally though.

Jesus also walked on water. There are a lot of things He did that he may not expect us to do.
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:25   #47
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
Perhaps if you are a subject in what has been the pussification of America you may see being slapped as a physical assault. Back then it was an act of insulting someone in a very public way. This is not the same as a physical attack.
I get it... so I'm pussified if I think Jesus was instructing people to be pacifists. Gotcha.

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I'll ask you again, what do you think the function of a sword was if not to attack or defend oneself from an attack?
Sorry I never saw where you asked me the first time. I personally think this passage shows where jesus really was just a man and not anything magical or god like. I think he was afraid and he was telling his handlers to get some weapons. He knew he had pissed off the wrong people and his time was running out. And I do think he makes himself a hypocrite here because up until this point he preached loving one's enemies, not resisting evil, and being a pacifist.

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To put it another way, if someone slaps you in the face, would you then draw your gun???
No... I have a habit of head butting people and smashing their noses. Peace through superior firepower. But that was not Jesus' style. That is not what his example was and is it not the duty of each Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a gun? Or do you think he would have accepted God's will and let what will be... be?

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As for Jesus, no he did not strike back in the face of violence, he would either slip away from an angry mob or when sentenced to death he went willingly to it. He never instructed his disciples to lay down for anyone who was to attack them personally though.
Again, is it not the goal of every Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a Glock had they been available then? Do you think he would have approved of his followers carrying a machine designed to kill to efficiently?

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Jesus also walked on water. There are a lot of things He did that he may not expect us to do.
That's a cop out. There is a difference between the everyday example he set for his followers and the "Miracles" that the writers of the bible invented and attributed to him.
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Last edited by Glock36shooter; 12-12-2012 at 17:26..
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:58   #48
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I get it... so I'm pussified if I think Jesus was instructing people to be pacifists. Gotcha.
You missed it. Jesus was instructing people not to retaliate or seek revenge when wronged. None...I repeat NONE of the examples He gave in that passage involve a current mortal threat or even a threat of physical damage. Your premise here is that getting slapped is equivalent to a serious physical attack that in order to ignore or simply allow to happen would be an act of extreme pacifism. Problem is getting slapped is little more than an insult.


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Sorry I never saw where you asked me the first time. I personally think this passage shows where jesus really was just a man and not anything magical or god like. I think he was afraid and he was telling his handlers to get some weapons. He knew he had pissed off the wrong people and his time was running out. And I do think he makes himself a hypocrite here because up until this point he preached loving one's enemies, not resisting evil, and being a pacifist.
My apologies, I asked you this in another thread. If Jesus was afraid why would he stay in town? If Jesus was afraid why be silent when questioned by the Sanhedrin or when before Pontious when he could have gotten out of such punishment? Your reasoning doesn't add up. Why tell Peter to put his sword away when coming to His defense that night? The swords were not to defend Christ, they were to defend themselves. Loving ones enemies he certainly preached, but where does he teach pacifism???


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No... I have a habit of head butting people and smashing their noses. Peace through superior firepower. But that was not Jesus' style. That is not what his example was and is it not the duty of each Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a gun? Or do you think he would have accepted God's will and let what will be... be?
Christ came here to die at the appointed time and in that appointed way. My future is not so certain. Being as Christ-Like as possible is to follow his teachings, not strive to suffer the same fate.

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Again, is it not the goal of every Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a Glock had they been available then? Do you think he would have approved of his followers carrying a machine designed to kill to efficiently?
What would God need a Glock for? If His instructions were to be given in today's day of age, I believe "gun" would have been substituted for "sword".



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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
That's a cop out. There is a difference between the everyday example he set for his followers and the "Miracles" that the writers of the bible invented and attributed to him.
Agreed. See my comment above about being Christ-like.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:59   #49
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
None...I repeat NONE of the examples He gave in that passage involve a current mortal threat or even a threat of physical damage.
But even in times when Christ did encounter mortal danger he's response was never counter strike or aggressive defense. It was usually an attempt to reach the heart of the individual doing the attacking. You simply cannot support in any biblical way that Christ would have ever approved of carrying a weapon to harm others to keep them from harming you. It simply wasn't his style.


Quote:
Your premise here is that getting slapped is equivalent to a serious physical attack that in order to ignore or simply allow to happen would be an act of extreme pacifism. Problem is getting slapped is little more than an insult.
That isn't my entire premise. You're reducing it down to the slap. Christ said to not resist the evil that people do to you. If they try and take from you... give to them freely. If they force you to walk a mile with them... go two. To love and pray for your enemies. I'm sure Jesus would have said to flee if they were trying to stab you... I understand your point... but in his entire teachings I cannot see anyone twisting them to mean he approved of carrying, and then deploying weapons designed to kill for defense. It's massaging the text to fit your world view.



Quote:
If Jesus was afraid why would he stay in town? If Jesus was afraid why be silent when questioned by the Sanhedrin or when before Pontious when he could have gotten out of such punishment? Your reasoning doesn't add up. Why tell Peter to put his sword away when coming to His defense that night? The swords were not to defend Christ, they were to defend themselves. Loving ones enemies he certainly preached, but where does he teach pacifism???
Well this one boils down to a difference of opinion on Christ. One we'll never see eye to eye on. From my perspective Christ was more than likely mentally ill. IF he truly went around claiming to be the son of God then he was most certainly mentally disturbed. No one really knows for sure if he even said many of the things attributed to him in the Bible. For that matter the "Get a Sword" line may have been added by his followers in response to him being taken away and murdered. A sort of call to arms in a post Jesus world so to speak. From the time he took over for John Jesus felt he was one a mission from God. Much like nut job Islamist have moments where they absolutely do not fear death... Christ had his moments where he was ready to take a beating for what he believed. But in the end he's only human. And here I think we see him having a moment of weakness. It's the fact that it's so out of character that is compelling. The passage about getting a sword is absolutely contradictory to just about everything else Jesus ever taught. But even if you want to twist this passage into a justification for carrying a "Sword" you most certainly will not find any support from Christ for actually USING it.

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Christ came here to die at the appointed time and in that appointed way. My future is not so certain. Being as Christ-Like as possible is to follow his teachings, not strive to suffer the same fate.
Again, this avenue of conversation is pointless. To me Christ was simply a man. He didn't COME here to do anything. He was a street preacher (not unlike MANY just like him at the time going around claiming to perform miracles and healings). IF he truly went around saying he was the son of God... he was mostly likely insane... or a con artist. But at the end of the day he was a social trouble maker and was murdered for the things he said. That's all.

Quote:
What would God need a Glock for? If His instructions were to be given in today's day of age, I believe "gun" would have been substituted for "sword".
But you'll find no justification from Christ for actually using it. Even if you want to believe he instructed you to have it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:24   #50
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But even in times when Christ did encounter mortal danger he's response was never counter strike or aggressive defense. It was usually an attempt to reach the heart of the individual doing the attacking. You simply cannot support in any biblical way that Christ would have ever approved of carrying a weapon to harm others to keep them from harming you. It simply wasn't his style.
At one point when he was about to be stoned he slipped away from the crowd. Because we see Christ differently I highly doubt we will come to an agreement here.

Since I see Christ as the son of God I see him as able to diffuse/avoid a violent situation no matter what the circumstances. I however do not possess his abilities therefore I may find myself in a position where I must resort to violence to defend myself. Of course I would use violence as a last resort.

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That isn't my entire premise. You're reducing it down to the slap. Christ said to not resist the evil that people do to you. If they try and take from you... give to them freely. If they force you to walk a mile with them... go two. To love and pray for your enemies. I'm sure Jesus would have said to flee if they were trying to stab you... I understand your point... but in his entire teachings I cannot see anyone twisting them to mean he approved of carrying, and then deploying weapons designed to kill for defense. It's massaging the text to fit your world view.
Avoidance is always best, but for us mere humans not always possible. You think an Omniscient being wouldn't know this? As for my world view? I guess I would have to wonder why Jesus would instruct people to carry a sword.

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Well this one boils down to a difference of opinion on Christ. One we'll never see eye to eye on. From my perspective Christ was more than likely mentally ill. IF he truly went around claiming to be the son of God then he was most certainly mentally disturbed. No one really knows for sure if he even said many of the things attributed to him in the Bible. For that matter the "Get a Sword" line may have been added by his followers in response to him being taken away and murdered. A sort of call to arms in a post Jesus world so to speak. From the time he took over for John Jesus felt he was one a mission from God. Much like nut job Islamist have moments where they absolutely do not fear death... Christ had his moments where he was ready to take a beating for what he believed. But in the end he's only human. And here I think we see him having a moment of weakness. It's the fact that it's so out of character that is compelling. The passage about getting a sword is absolutely contradictory to just about everything else Jesus ever taught. But even if you want to twist this passage into a justification for carrying a "Sword" you most certainly will not find any support from Christ for actually USING it.
So you explain the passage of "get a sword" by just denying He said it? How about denying MT 5 while your at it? Perhaps in order to maintain a discussion on this I would first need to read your truncated account of Matthew.

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Again, this avenue of conversation is pointless. To me Christ was simply a man. He didn't COME here to do anything. He was a street preacher (not unlike MANY just like him at the time going around claiming to perform miracles and healings). IF he truly went around saying he was the son of God... he was mostly likely insane... or a con artist. But at the end of the day he was a social trouble maker and was murdered for the things he said. That's all.
Uh Huh....which is why nobody ever heard of this Jesus person.


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But you'll find no justification from Christ for actually using it. Even if you want to believe he instructed you to have it.
It's not used for decoration.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:57   #51
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At one point when he was about to be stoned he slipped away from the crowd. Because we see Christ differently I highly doubt we will come to an agreement here.

Since I see Christ as the son of God I see him as able to diffuse/avoid a violent situation no matter what the circumstances.
Then why would he flee at all? Why not just snap his fingers and have them all overwhelmed with the spirit or some other form of magic?

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I however do not possess his abilities therefore I may find myself in a position where I must resort to violence to defend myself. Of course I would use violence as a last resort.
But you won't find an approval from Christ on this in the bible. I get why you carry. The same reason I do. But I don't believe in this stuff so I face no conflict. You have convinced yourself there is no conflict because it is what you want to believe. But you won't find jesus saying it's ok to use a weapon against another person for personal defense.

Quote:
Avoidance is always best, but for us mere humans not always possible. You think an Omniscient being wouldn't know this?
I would think you are assuming God agrees with your world view. That he likes the guns you like and hates the same people you do. Don't feel alone. It's a pretty common mind set with believers. Now... Yahweh... I bet you can absolutely find some scripture where he commands you to put folks to the sword for looking at you funny. But not Christ.

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As for my world view? I guess I would have to wonder why Jesus would instruct people to carry a sword.
If you want to get technical he didn't. He just said buy one.

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So you explain the passage of "get a sword" by just denying He said it? How about denying MT 5 while your at it? Perhaps in order to maintain a discussion on this I would first need to read your truncated account of Matthew.
We have to assume he said it for argument sake... though there is no proof he actually did. I think at this point Christ was having a bit of mental break down. He wasn't getting through to people the way he wanted and he knew he had pissed off the wrong folks and his time was running out. It's one of those crazy person "NO NO NO! YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT!" type of things. he knelt there and prayed in a puddle of his own sweat and poetically it says his sweat became drops of blood. So we see them using poetic license here so the "get a sword" passage may have been much like it. To defend one's spirit from satan perhaps. Just before he talks about satan wanting to sift them like wheat. It would make sense for him to instruct them to arm themselves against satan instead of other humans as that would be very contrary to his overall message to that point. Again, I think you are reading into this a message that agrees with your want to carry a gun. You need some kind of justification because you aren't trusting in God's will. I don't think any rational person can assert that Christ was pro-weapon or pro-violence... even in defense. It simply is outside of nearly everything else he preached.

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Uh Huh....which is why nobody ever heard of this Jesus person.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. Most everyone has heard of Zeus as well. Doesn't make the accounts of him anymore true. You seem to think that because it's your chosen delusion that it has more credence... it does not.

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It's not used for decoration.
Perhaps it was for show. Perhaps it was symbolic. Christ never gives justification for using the sword.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:04   #52
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http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html


Seems legit.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:14   #53
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I see... it becomes true because some internet guy agrees with you. Like I said, you can massage it until it agrees with your world view. That's what most Christians do anyway. But you still cannot find support from Christ in the bible for using a weapon against another human being. You can post links to all the internet bible guys you want. The justification simply doesn't exist except in your own mind.


LOL... such hypocrisy.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:35   #54
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Why are atheists wary of Christians?

Read this thread for the evidence.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:38   #55
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Then why would he flee at all? Why not just snap his fingers and have them all overwhelmed with the spirit or some other form of magic?
He did not come to enslave us.


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But you won't find an approval from Christ on this in the bible. I get why you carry. The same reason I do. But I don't believe in this stuff so I face no conflict. You have convinced yourself there is no conflict because it is what you want to believe. But you won't find jesus saying it's ok to use a weapon against another person for personal defense.
So why instruct to obtain a sword???


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I would think you are assuming God agrees with your world view. That he likes the guns you like and hates the same people you do. Don't feel alone. It's a pretty common mind set with believers. Now... Yahweh... I bet you can absolutely find some scripture where he commands you to put folks to the sword for looking at you funny. But not Christ.
It is you who assume too much about me. I know many of my views and actions are not Christ like. Not when it comes to this though.


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If you want to get technical he didn't. He just said buy one.
So you do agree that he said this? In your previous post you thought it was added in for another purpose.


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Perhaps it was for show. Perhaps it was symbolic. Christ never gives justification for using the sword.
Can you cite a passage where Christ instructs us not to defend ourselves from physical harm???
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Old 12-13-2012, 19:10   #56
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He did not come to enslave us.
LOL... ok what about disappearing in a puff of smoke. Or turning into a bat and flying away? He was not afraid to perform acts of wizardry in plain sight.


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So why instruct to obtain a sword???
For show? Symbolism? Metaphor? Do you believe he literally began to sweat blood?


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It is you who assume too much about me. I know many of my views and actions are not Christ like. Not when it comes to this though.
Because you have convinced yourself that God agrees with you in this case. Again, even if you can take this one WAY OUT of character statement to mean Jesus advocated the ownership and even at a stretch the carrying of a weapon... you'll find none foe the use of the weapon against another person.


Quote:
So you do agree that he said this? In your previous post you thought it was added in for another purpose.
I agree that for the sake of this discussion we must assume he did. I largely think Christ is a combination of a real person that was just a street preacher that got himself killed and a comic book character of the time that was turned into a religious icon. Who knows what, of the things attributed to him, he actually said.

Quote:
Can you cite a passage where Christ instructs us not to defend ourselves from physical harm???
I can't find a passage where he said not to eat clown meat... but I'm pretty sure he'd frown on it. That's a pretty weak stance. We're talking about what he did say. Funny how he makes a reference to getting a sword in statement about facing satan in the coming spreading of the gospel... but the second they set out to USE those swords he stopped them. Again, you'll find no reference to Jesus advocating the using of a weapon against anyone. Simply wasn't his style.
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Old 12-13-2012, 22:49   #57
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I see... it becomes true because some internet guy agrees with you. Like I said, you can massage it until it agrees with your world view. That's what most Christians do anyway. But you still cannot find support from Christ in the bible for using a weapon against another human being. You can post links to all the internet bible guys you want. The justification simply doesn't exist except in your own mind.


LOL... such hypocrisy.
Fools are always wrong and you are wrong.

In addition, you are an insignicant troll who displays a lot of bravado which shows nothing other than your emotional and mental insecurities. You are nothing.
Anyone who spends so much time and wastes so much bandwidth day after day has to have serious problems.
The funny thing is, you think you are accomplishing something. But in reality, you continue to make a fool of yourself and are failing.



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Old 12-14-2012, 07:24   #58
Glock36shooter
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Originally Posted by Blast View Post
Fools are always wrong and you are wrong.
No I'm not. Or you'd be able to easily point it out. You and others like you seem to think that because some other tool on the internet agrees with you and wrote an article that that somehow is concrete evidence. It is not. Swing and a miss stumpy.

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In addition, you are an insignicant troll who displays a lot of bravado which shows nothing other than your emotional and mental insecurities. You are nothing.
This coming from someone that has NEVER added a single thing to any debate in this forum. You drop off some asinine internet article as proof, pop back in with insults and some lame internet meme that conveys your thoughts (Since you are apparently not articulate enough to put it in your own words) and then claim yourself as the victor. I am here to debate religious issues. You seem only here to antagonize. So who really is the troll. But it's still funny... I musta got under your skin.


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Anyone who spends so much time and wastes so much bandwidth day after day has to have serious problems.
Another tired version of "Why do you guys even post here?" Yawn indeed.


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The funny thing is, you think you are accomplishing something. But in reality, you continue to make a fool of yourself and are failing.
Obviously I am accomplishing something. You're apparently upset. More than likely just frustrated at your own inability to hold your own in a debate with most of the non-believers here. You have shown yourself time and time again to be among the least educated and knowledgeable members here. That must be hard to deal with.


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Yeah... that'll show me. How can anyone argue with intellect like that?
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:27   #59
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
LOL... ok what about disappearing in a puff of smoke. Or turning into a bat and flying away? He was not afraid to perform acts of wizardry in plain sight.




For show? Symbolism? Metaphor? Do you believe he literally began to sweat blood?




Because you have convinced yourself that God agrees with you in this case. Again, even if you can take this one WAY OUT of character statement to mean Jesus advocated the ownership and even at a stretch the carrying of a weapon... you'll find none foe the use of the weapon against another person.




I agree that for the sake of this discussion we must assume he did. I largely think Christ is a combination of a real person that was just a street preacher that got himself killed and a comic book character of the time that was turned into a religious icon. Who knows what, of the things attributed to him, he actually said.



I can't find a passage where he said not to eat clown meat... but I'm pretty sure he'd frown on it. That's a pretty weak stance. We're talking about what he did say. Funny how he makes a reference to getting a sword in statement about facing satan in the coming spreading of the gospel... but the second they set out to USE those swords he stopped them. Again, you'll find no reference to Jesus advocating the using of a weapon against anyone. Simply wasn't his style.

Too many separate quotations in a post so I'm rolling them into one response.

1. No he wasn't, performing miracles has no connection with forcing people to do something.
2. No I don't think he wanted it for symbolism. Nice stretch.
3. Yes, sweating blood is possible. Never heard of hematidrosis?
4. So you couldn't find a passage then?
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:15   #60
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1. No he wasn't, performing miracles has no connection with forcing people to do something.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. Where did anyone say Christ was attempting to force people to do anything?

Quote:
2. No I don't think he wanted it for symbolism. Nice stretch.
Not stretching anything. You don't have a solid basis for Christ endorsing the carrying of a weapon. This is just a plain simple fact. And you most certainly have no basis for him endorsing the using of one on another person. This is contrary to Christs entire philosophy.

Quote:
3. Yes, sweating blood is possible. Never heard of hematidrosis?
Ah... so then you agree that Christ was overcome with terror here. That adds more credence to his hypocrisy born of fear. He was scared and therefore gave them instructions that ran counter to everything he had taught them up to that point.

Quote:
4. So you couldn't find a passage then?
Yes but you have rejected them with your own twisting of them. Let's look at Matthew 5 38-48 again. He mentions "Eye for and Eye". The old Mosaic law that says a crime must be repaid in equal kind. This is not just in reference to an insult but also theft, and even murder. Jesus mentions this and then countermands it. (Which also takes away from his statement that the law will remain until heaven and earth disappear). He is contradicting mosaic law here. Which includes more than just a slap to the face. Your view of what he is saying here is very two dimensional. So meeting violence with violence or fighting fire with fire is something he is most definitely speaking against here. You also have to understand the type of love Christ is implying here for one's enemies. It isn't Eros or Philia... but Agape. It is a self-sacrificial love that God commands man to have for one another. And it is a voluntary type of love... not one inspired by sexual partnering or friendship and family. So reject it all you like but Christ is instructing you to not respond in kind to violence as the old law says, and to have self-sacrificing voluntary love for one's enemy.

For him to later suggest to take up a sword and start hacking at those that would attack you is HIGHLY contradictory and hypocritical of him. And I think it's born of terror at the moments before his capture and shows very clearly that Christ was just a man.
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