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Old 12-11-2012, 23:01   #21
Warp
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Originally Posted by barth View Post
After I've emptied my HK45C and two extended 10 round mags
of Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 gr +P 45 and the fight continues?

Then the gloves come off and it's slug time.
Can you cite an example of a private citizen shooting an attacker(s) with a handgun and then, upon failure of the handgun, going to a long gun?

I cannot recall hearing about anything like that and it seems unlikely.
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Last edited by Warp; 12-11-2012 at 23:07..
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Old 12-11-2012, 23:05   #22
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Federal #4 Buck 27 pellet in my HD shotgun. My patrol shotgun is loaded with Federal Flite-control 00 buck LE13200.

I really like the #4 in the house. 27 pellets of .24 caliber is no joke and it patterns well out to about 20 yards, much farther than any distance inside my house.

I like that the #4 seems to spread early compared to 00, atleast in the pattern tests I have done.

Its really devastating up close, but loses energy and the patterns spreads really far at distance.
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Old 12-11-2012, 23:27   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Can you cite an example of a private citizen shooting an attacker(s) with a handgun and then, upon failure of the handgun, going to a long gun?

I cannot recall hearing about anything like that and it seems unlikely.
As much as we've disagreed recently, I agree with you.

I read a study once (can't remember where) that a reload occurred in only 0.5% of defensive shootings. Yes, one half of one percent...

And unless you are a LEO of some kind, using your handgun to fight back to your rifle, so to speak, simply isn't going to happen.
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Old 12-11-2012, 23:43   #24
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Federal XM12700. Comes in the ammo can. It's just their regular full-power 00. No Flite Control wad. As much as I love what the FC wad brings for hunting and LE use, I don't need it for HD. My 870 is a "hunker down and wait for police" gun, so if it's fired, it'll be into the person beating in my door across the room.

Now that 1B Warp is showing would probably take over if I could get around to ordering some!
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:27   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Can you cite an example of a private citizen shooting an attacker(s) with a handgun and then, upon failure of the handgun, going to a long gun?

I cannot recall hearing about anything like that and it seems unlikely.
A multiple armed attacker home invasion comes to mind.

With ~300 million people in the US.
And ~65K of incidents a year where folks use a gun for self defense.
Your chances of ever using your gun at all are just above zero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...elf-protection

I never read of anyone saying after a gunfight;
"Damn, I wish I had less ammo and fewer weapons!"
Of course dead men tell no tales.

Last edited by barth; 12-12-2012 at 03:32..
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:54   #26
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Remington Reduced Recoil 12ga 00 Buck.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:20   #27
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Federal OOO buckshot 8 pellets @1600 FPS. Nothing better for my felon neighbors here in Hartford, VT
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:19   #28
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This will get the flames going, but I like the PDX1 buck/slug combo for home defense, ie short ranges. It patters nice and tight with poa/poi out of my M4 which has a modified choke. Anything past 15 yds and I would go for a Wolf slug or one of the wonder OO buck loads like the flite control others have posted about. I have also found the cheap winchester walmart value pack buckshot to pattern nicely out of the weapon.

I do have some of the new federal tactical #1 Buck I need to get out and pattern . . .

Last edited by triggerjerk; 12-12-2012 at 09:23..
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:48   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
A multiple armed attacker home invasion comes to mind.

With ~300 million people in the US.
And ~65K of incidents a year where folks use a gun for self defense.
Your chances of ever using your gun at all are just above zero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vio...elf-protection

I never read of anyone saying after a gunfight;
"Damn, I wish I had less ammo and fewer weapons!"
Of course dead men tell no tales.
No, not a theoretical example a real example.
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:54   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
After I've emptied my HK45C and two extended 10 round mags
of Winchester Ranger T-Series 230 gr +P 45 and the fight continues?

Then the gloves come off and it's slug time.
I am not even sure what you are saying. I only offer tha 12ga slugs are a poor choice for HD. If you are still in the fight after all the handgun ammo goes down range, I doubt you make it to the SG. BEsides, where do you store spare mags on your person @ 2am?
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Old 12-12-2012, 20:11   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
A multiple armed attacker home invasion comes to mind.
I wasn't asking for a hypothetical situation you made up where you think that maybe it could happen.
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:18   #32
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I am not even sure what you are saying. I only offer tha 12ga slugs are a poor choice for HD. If you are still in the fight after all the handgun ammo goes down range, I doubt you make it to the SG. BEsides, where do you store spare mags on your person @ 2am?
Look at some tests with Winchester or Remington rifled slugs. They're anything but a poor choice.
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:25   #33
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Look at some tests with Winchester or Remington rifled slugs. They're anything but a poor choice.
Well, that depends on your criteria for judging.

The penetration of slugs through common building materials leads most people away from using them for HD
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:13   #34
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Well, that depends on your criteria for judging.

The penetration of slugs through common building materials leads most people away from using them for HD
Penetration through test media that is comparable to human tissue as well as real-world examples is usually my criteria. If the penetration through common building materials were my concern, I wouldn't even use .22LR... I'd use 8 shot. But look at tnoutdoors9's testing. Only about 10 or 11 inches of penetration, even out of Remington's 3" slugs. Handguns in his testing regularly surpass 12, 13, 14 inches. And in my own very limited experience (I.E. one deer this year with the Remington load), the slug performed as tnoutdoors9's test indicated.

Now I'm not advocating slugs or trying to prove their superiority or anything... I'm just saying... they're not the engine block penetrators that everyone says.

EDIT - just talking about Foster style slugs here... soft lead. Not Sabot or Brenneke style.
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:17   #35
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Penetration through test media that is comparable to human tissue as well as real-world examples is usually my criteria.
Probably the most pragmatic option there is. T&E your ammo, then train like you mean it.

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Old 12-12-2012, 22:21   #36
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Originally Posted by Inebriated View Post
Penetration through test media that is comparable to human tissue as well as real-world examples is usually my criteria. If the penetration through common building materials were my concern, I wouldn't even use .22LR... I'd use 8 shot. But look at tnoutdoors9's testing. Only about 10 or 11 inches of penetration, even out of Remington's 3" slugs. Handguns in his testing regularly surpass 12, 13, 14 inches. And in my own very limited experience (I.E. one deer this year with the Remington load), the slug performed as tnoutdoors9's test indicated.

Now I'm not advocating slugs or trying to prove their superiority or anything... I'm just saying... they're not the engine block penetrators that everyone says.

EDIT - just talking about Foster style slugs here... soft lead. Not Sabot or Brenneke style.

The issue is missed shots, where slugs go through a lot more than other options.

Something people need to know when they make their decisions
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:26   #37
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My HD shotty is a 870 Police 12 gauge w/ 18.5" barrel. I don't think it really matters what I put in it for the ranges inside a home so long as it's buckshot, buck and ball, or a slug. It's a 12 gauge...
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:31   #38
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This will get the flames going, but I like the PDX1 buck/slug combo for home defense, ie short ranges. It patters nice and tight with poa/poi out of my M4 which has a modified choke. Anything past 15 yds and I would go for a Wolf slug or one of the wonder OO buck loads like the flite control others have posted about. I have also found the cheap winchester walmart value pack buckshot to pattern nicely out of the weapon.
Winchester PDX1 12 Defender (12 gauge) Gel Ammo Test - YouTube

I do have some of the new federal tactical #1 Buck I need to get out and pattern . . .
I have a lot of the PDX1 myself, and it's great for short range (15-20 yards Max) as you mention. I have however found that the Centurion buck and ball is more accurate (the ball) a little further out. Not that it matters for HD, and with that said I prefer buckshot (preferably plated, but I have no problems with cheap Remington value pack 00 buck either).
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:36   #39
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12-gauge... First round in chamber BB shot and then 8 000-buck shot rounds in the tube...

The BB shot round is for 4-legged pests around here -- armadillos, 'coons, 'possums, skunks, etc... The 000-buck if for the 2-legged pests around here -- crooks, HOA Nazis, etc -- basically any trespasser...

Seriously though, I would just use whatever firearm is closest, but if that happens to be the 12-gauge, well, that's how I keep it loaded...
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Old 12-13-2012, 14:03   #40
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I forgot what I have in my Mossberg M500 - four rounds of 12ga combo loads - 1 slug with three OO buckhot pellets in each - followed by two OOO buckshot shells. Post no. 9000!
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