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Old 12-05-2012, 08:18   #26
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Originally Posted by JBnTX View Post
No, that's what you just said, not me.
I never mentioned anything about the government.

Don't you read your own posts?
Good Grief! Do you even understand your own words?

You said:

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When they kicked God out of the schools and out of public buildings, and when they outlawed the 10 commandments.
You do know that public schools are government schools, public buildings are government buildings, and only government can outlaw something?
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:26   #27
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Originally Posted by Kentak View Post
Good Grief! Do you even understand your own words?

You do know that public schools are government schools, public buildings are government buildings, and only government can outlaw something?
Well, there you go!
You figured it out!

I'm impressed.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:35   #28
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Read this post by a GT member, known to you all I'm sure.

I consider the views expressed in this post to be unAmerican and anti-liberty, but typical of the more extreme religious right.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=10
I read the post and I fail to find anything un-Amarican or anti-liberty in it.

He did not advocate (at least in that post) forcing anyone to do anything.

Your post on the other hand is seems to me to be fueled by fear and anger.

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Old 12-05-2012, 08:40   #29
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Arc, do you think I didn't believe you'd find this thread. You made your post on a public forum--it's fair game to use to make a point.

It's the *views* about the relationship between church and state expressed in your post that was the thrust of my post. Many others hold similar views, you just expressed it so clearly and timely. If you take it as a personal attack--that's something I have no control over.

I think you are a terribly sincere, but very, very misguided individual. You really would be happier living in a Christian theocratic nation. But, America isn't that--and never was, and never was intended to be.

I would be interested in hearing your reaction to the points I made above in #3. Up to you of course.

The pleasure you take in anticipating my comeuppance when I meet your god is very apparent. I know that's important to you.
No, Ken, what you did is, both, underhanded and vicious.

You certainly know me well enough to send me a PM in order to discuss whatever objections you have to anything I've said. We know each other well enough for you to have extended me that courtesy. (I would have done the same for you!)

Yes, I'm convinced that you tried to slip this one past me. You're a misguided, but not a stupid man; and you had some sort of covert personal agenda for not quoting me directly, and by name, rather than using an oblique web address, instead.

I'm not going to answer you any further than this. 'Wheat can't grow where it's choked out by tares.' Neither am I going to make the mistake of, 'giving that which is holy unto the dogs'. (Figuratively speaking, of course!)

Get this straight: I made no association between, 'church, and state' as you say. My thinking goes way beyond worldly institutions. I have directly alluded to THE HIGHER MORALITY OF GOD, instead.

If, as originally written, you object to anything I've said, it's not something about, 'church, and state'. It's about divine ethics, men's souls, and personal moral behaviors. (You clearly missed that; didn't you!)

I'm, now, done with you, Ken. We're, both, older men. You go to God in your way; and I'll go to God in mine. I'm certain we'll get all this straightened out, then. You really should have kept your mouth shut, Buddy. As you're, soon enough, going to discover for yourself, it's never a good thing when a man testifies against himself.

If not civil courtesy, if not common sense, you should have demonstrated more, 'godly fear'. If angels really do exist, right now, not one of them has missed this most recent mistake you've made.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:00   #30
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Luke 22:36 He that has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one."
God tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:02   #31
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Yes it does indicate that believers should be armed. It is also consistent with Psalm 149:6-7 "Let the high praise of the Lord be on their lips, and a two edge sword in their hand: To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people:"

BTW Peter allegedly cut off a soldier's ear with a sword.
Sounds like a Muslim extremists.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:05   #32
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Sounds like a Muslim extremists.
You should be afraid...very afraid!

Praise God.



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Old 12-05-2012, 12:10   #33
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You should be afraid...very afraid!

Praise God.



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I am afraid....of religious fanatics.
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Old 12-05-2012, 13:02   #34
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I am afraid....of religious fanatics.
Bolt your doors and arm yourself! The Methodists are at the gates!

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Old 12-05-2012, 13:08   #35
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God tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
Once again you seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to be victimized.

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Old 12-05-2012, 13:39   #36
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When they kicked God out of the schools and out of public buildings, and when they outlawed the 10 commandments.
That has, for the most part, happened within the last 20 years. Is it your contention that before that time, the US was a " God-fearing, God-believing, and God-worshipping nation. "?
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:38   #37
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When they kicked God out of the schools and out of public buildings, and when they outlawed the 10 commandments.
A recent Gallup poll shows that the number of believers has held up well since then, so your fears are unfounded.
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:40   #38
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Once again you seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to be victimized.

Regards,
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Why is that? His kingdom isn't of this world. What happens to you in this world doesn't matter as long as you keep the faith. Enduring difficulty is a test of your faith, which you obviously don't have.

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Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 5:11
You really haven't read the Bible have you?
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:54   #39
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Luke 22:36 He that has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one."
But that's contradictory to Matthew 5:38-48.

You never see anyone touting the virtues of being a pacifist.
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:55   #40
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Once again you seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to be victimized.

Regards,
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Yeah... he sure does look after his people doesn't he.... Holocaust anyone?
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Old 12-05-2012, 15:00   #41
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Once again you seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to be victimized.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
If he doesn't want his children to be victimized, why did he allow other religions to be formed, and allow them to squabble between each other? He's supposed to be an all knowing, all powerful God. And if he's all knowing, then he should've been able to foresee exactly what would happen when he allowed people to make their own religions, instead of following the one he wanted. So if he doesn't want his children to be victimized, why does he allow them to be victimized? Why doesn't he kill all of the muslim extremists? Why doesn't he kill anyone who disagrees with christianity? Why doesn't he kill all the sinners and non-believers, if he doesn't want his children to be victimized?
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Old 12-05-2012, 15:22   #42
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
God tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth.
That is true. There are plenty of inconsistencies in the bible.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:06   #43
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I agree with every word of Arc Angel's post.
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Why do people like Bob Costas (and all of the other godless atheists we have around here) so completely fail to realize that it is neither the presence nor the absence of weapons - especially firearms - that guarantees the public safety?
Arc angel claims that all "godless atheists" "fail to realize that it is neither the presence nor the absence of weapons - especially firearms - that guarantees the public safety?"

Direct counterexample -> I am a "godless atheist" (yay for repetition), yet I own guns, and I disagree with Bob Costas.

Data to think about:
http://www.armedlutheran.us/anti-gun...-gun-churches/
http://christiangirlatcollege.wordpr...dnt-own-a-gun/

I submit to you that the reality is that many people are anti-gun, many people are pro-gun, and this does not automatically coincide with religion or lack thereof. Given this, if you agree with every word of Arc Angel's post, you are agreeing with statements that a few seconds thought and research would indicate are incorrect.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:19   #44
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But that's contradictory to Matthew 5:38-48.

You never see anyone touting the virtues of being a pacifist.
Matthew 5:38-48 has nothing to do with pacifism in the face of violence.
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:21   #45
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Matthew 5:38-48 has nothing to do with pacifism in the face of violence.
Sure it does. If someone strikes you... turn to them your other cheek. How is that not pacifism in the face of violence?

Can you find one instance where jesus struk first or even struck back in the face of violence?

I don't think you can reasonably conclude at all that Jesus ever instructed to use force or even the threat of force to protect one's self from an attack. And if that truly is what he meant in the "Get a sword" passage.. he's a hypocrite. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it go away.
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Old 12-12-2012, 15:07   #46
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Sure it does. If someone strikes you... turn to them your other cheek. How is that not pacifism in the face of violence?

Can you find one instance where jesus struk first or even struck back in the face of violence?

I don't think you can reasonably conclude at all that Jesus ever instructed to use force or even the threat of force to protect one's self from an attack. And if that truly is what he meant in the "Get a sword" passage.. he's a hypocrite. Refusing to acknowledge it doesn't make it go away.
Perhaps if you are a subject in what has been the pussification of America you may see being slapped as a physical assault. Back then it was an act of insulting someone in a very public way. This is not the same as a physical attack.

I'll ask you again, what do you think the function of a sword was if not to attack or defend oneself from an attack?

To put it another way, if someone slaps you in the face, would you then draw your gun???

As for Jesus, no he did not strike back in the face of violence, he would either slip away from an angry mob or when sentenced to death he went willingly to it. He never instructed his disciples to lay down for anyone who was to attack them personally though.

Jesus also walked on water. There are a lot of things He did that he may not expect us to do.
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:25   #47
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Perhaps if you are a subject in what has been the pussification of America you may see being slapped as a physical assault. Back then it was an act of insulting someone in a very public way. This is not the same as a physical attack.
I get it... so I'm pussified if I think Jesus was instructing people to be pacifists. Gotcha.

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I'll ask you again, what do you think the function of a sword was if not to attack or defend oneself from an attack?
Sorry I never saw where you asked me the first time. I personally think this passage shows where jesus really was just a man and not anything magical or god like. I think he was afraid and he was telling his handlers to get some weapons. He knew he had pissed off the wrong people and his time was running out. And I do think he makes himself a hypocrite here because up until this point he preached loving one's enemies, not resisting evil, and being a pacifist.

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To put it another way, if someone slaps you in the face, would you then draw your gun???
No... I have a habit of head butting people and smashing their noses. Peace through superior firepower. But that was not Jesus' style. That is not what his example was and is it not the duty of each Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a gun? Or do you think he would have accepted God's will and let what will be... be?

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As for Jesus, no he did not strike back in the face of violence, he would either slip away from an angry mob or when sentenced to death he went willingly to it. He never instructed his disciples to lay down for anyone who was to attack them personally though.
Again, is it not the goal of every Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a Glock had they been available then? Do you think he would have approved of his followers carrying a machine designed to kill to efficiently?

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Jesus also walked on water. There are a lot of things He did that he may not expect us to do.
That's a cop out. There is a difference between the everyday example he set for his followers and the "Miracles" that the writers of the bible invented and attributed to him.

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Old 12-12-2012, 16:58   #48
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I get it... so I'm pussified if I think Jesus was instructing people to be pacifists. Gotcha.
You missed it. Jesus was instructing people not to retaliate or seek revenge when wronged. None...I repeat NONE of the examples He gave in that passage involve a current mortal threat or even a threat of physical damage. Your premise here is that getting slapped is equivalent to a serious physical attack that in order to ignore or simply allow to happen would be an act of extreme pacifism. Problem is getting slapped is little more than an insult.


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Sorry I never saw where you asked me the first time. I personally think this passage shows where jesus really was just a man and not anything magical or god like. I think he was afraid and he was telling his handlers to get some weapons. He knew he had pissed off the wrong people and his time was running out. And I do think he makes himself a hypocrite here because up until this point he preached loving one's enemies, not resisting evil, and being a pacifist.
My apologies, I asked you this in another thread. If Jesus was afraid why would he stay in town? If Jesus was afraid why be silent when questioned by the Sanhedrin or when before Pontious when he could have gotten out of such punishment? Your reasoning doesn't add up. Why tell Peter to put his sword away when coming to His defense that night? The swords were not to defend Christ, they were to defend themselves. Loving ones enemies he certainly preached, but where does he teach pacifism???


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No... I have a habit of head butting people and smashing their noses. Peace through superior firepower. But that was not Jesus' style. That is not what his example was and is it not the duty of each Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a gun? Or do you think he would have accepted God's will and let what will be... be?
Christ came here to die at the appointed time and in that appointed way. My future is not so certain. Being as Christ-Like as possible is to follow his teachings, not strive to suffer the same fate.

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Again, is it not the goal of every Christian to be as Christ-like as possible? Do you think Christ would have carried a Glock had they been available then? Do you think he would have approved of his followers carrying a machine designed to kill to efficiently?
What would God need a Glock for? If His instructions were to be given in today's day of age, I believe "gun" would have been substituted for "sword".



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That's a cop out. There is a difference between the everyday example he set for his followers and the "Miracles" that the writers of the bible invented and attributed to him.
Agreed. See my comment above about being Christ-like.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:59   #49
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None...I repeat NONE of the examples He gave in that passage involve a current mortal threat or even a threat of physical damage.
But even in times when Christ did encounter mortal danger he's response was never counter strike or aggressive defense. It was usually an attempt to reach the heart of the individual doing the attacking. You simply cannot support in any biblical way that Christ would have ever approved of carrying a weapon to harm others to keep them from harming you. It simply wasn't his style.


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Your premise here is that getting slapped is equivalent to a serious physical attack that in order to ignore or simply allow to happen would be an act of extreme pacifism. Problem is getting slapped is little more than an insult.
That isn't my entire premise. You're reducing it down to the slap. Christ said to not resist the evil that people do to you. If they try and take from you... give to them freely. If they force you to walk a mile with them... go two. To love and pray for your enemies. I'm sure Jesus would have said to flee if they were trying to stab you... I understand your point... but in his entire teachings I cannot see anyone twisting them to mean he approved of carrying, and then deploying weapons designed to kill for defense. It's massaging the text to fit your world view.



Quote:
If Jesus was afraid why would he stay in town? If Jesus was afraid why be silent when questioned by the Sanhedrin or when before Pontious when he could have gotten out of such punishment? Your reasoning doesn't add up. Why tell Peter to put his sword away when coming to His defense that night? The swords were not to defend Christ, they were to defend themselves. Loving ones enemies he certainly preached, but where does he teach pacifism???
Well this one boils down to a difference of opinion on Christ. One we'll never see eye to eye on. From my perspective Christ was more than likely mentally ill. IF he truly went around claiming to be the son of God then he was most certainly mentally disturbed. No one really knows for sure if he even said many of the things attributed to him in the Bible. For that matter the "Get a Sword" line may have been added by his followers in response to him being taken away and murdered. A sort of call to arms in a post Jesus world so to speak. From the time he took over for John Jesus felt he was one a mission from God. Much like nut job Islamist have moments where they absolutely do not fear death... Christ had his moments where he was ready to take a beating for what he believed. But in the end he's only human. And here I think we see him having a moment of weakness. It's the fact that it's so out of character that is compelling. The passage about getting a sword is absolutely contradictory to just about everything else Jesus ever taught. But even if you want to twist this passage into a justification for carrying a "Sword" you most certainly will not find any support from Christ for actually USING it.

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Christ came here to die at the appointed time and in that appointed way. My future is not so certain. Being as Christ-Like as possible is to follow his teachings, not strive to suffer the same fate.
Again, this avenue of conversation is pointless. To me Christ was simply a man. He didn't COME here to do anything. He was a street preacher (not unlike MANY just like him at the time going around claiming to perform miracles and healings). IF he truly went around saying he was the son of God... he was mostly likely insane... or a con artist. But at the end of the day he was a social trouble maker and was murdered for the things he said. That's all.

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What would God need a Glock for? If His instructions were to be given in today's day of age, I believe "gun" would have been substituted for "sword".
But you'll find no justification from Christ for actually using it. Even if you want to believe he instructed you to have it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:24   #50
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But even in times when Christ did encounter mortal danger he's response was never counter strike or aggressive defense. It was usually an attempt to reach the heart of the individual doing the attacking. You simply cannot support in any biblical way that Christ would have ever approved of carrying a weapon to harm others to keep them from harming you. It simply wasn't his style.
At one point when he was about to be stoned he slipped away from the crowd. Because we see Christ differently I highly doubt we will come to an agreement here.

Since I see Christ as the son of God I see him as able to diffuse/avoid a violent situation no matter what the circumstances. I however do not possess his abilities therefore I may find myself in a position where I must resort to violence to defend myself. Of course I would use violence as a last resort.

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That isn't my entire premise. You're reducing it down to the slap. Christ said to not resist the evil that people do to you. If they try and take from you... give to them freely. If they force you to walk a mile with them... go two. To love and pray for your enemies. I'm sure Jesus would have said to flee if they were trying to stab you... I understand your point... but in his entire teachings I cannot see anyone twisting them to mean he approved of carrying, and then deploying weapons designed to kill for defense. It's massaging the text to fit your world view.
Avoidance is always best, but for us mere humans not always possible. You think an Omniscient being wouldn't know this? As for my world view? I guess I would have to wonder why Jesus would instruct people to carry a sword.

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Well this one boils down to a difference of opinion on Christ. One we'll never see eye to eye on. From my perspective Christ was more than likely mentally ill. IF he truly went around claiming to be the son of God then he was most certainly mentally disturbed. No one really knows for sure if he even said many of the things attributed to him in the Bible. For that matter the "Get a Sword" line may have been added by his followers in response to him being taken away and murdered. A sort of call to arms in a post Jesus world so to speak. From the time he took over for John Jesus felt he was one a mission from God. Much like nut job Islamist have moments where they absolutely do not fear death... Christ had his moments where he was ready to take a beating for what he believed. But in the end he's only human. And here I think we see him having a moment of weakness. It's the fact that it's so out of character that is compelling. The passage about getting a sword is absolutely contradictory to just about everything else Jesus ever taught. But even if you want to twist this passage into a justification for carrying a "Sword" you most certainly will not find any support from Christ for actually USING it.
So you explain the passage of "get a sword" by just denying He said it? How about denying MT 5 while your at it? Perhaps in order to maintain a discussion on this I would first need to read your truncated account of Matthew.

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Again, this avenue of conversation is pointless. To me Christ was simply a man. He didn't COME here to do anything. He was a street preacher (not unlike MANY just like him at the time going around claiming to perform miracles and healings). IF he truly went around saying he was the son of God... he was mostly likely insane... or a con artist. But at the end of the day he was a social trouble maker and was murdered for the things he said. That's all.
Uh Huh....which is why nobody ever heard of this Jesus person.


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But you'll find no justification from Christ for actually using it. Even if you want to believe he instructed you to have it.
It's not used for decoration.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42