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Old 12-31-2012, 13:06   #61
Japle
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Posted by inertia186:
There was a higher standard of living requirement imposed by the OT on Hebrews who had slaves, as compared to the other occupiers at the time.
So? It's still slavery. It's still people buying and selling and killing other people, splitting families, etc.

Your comment is like saying, "The Hebrews had a higher standard of rape and murder".
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Old 12-31-2012, 13:39   #62
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So? It's still slavery. It's still people buying and selling and killing other people, splitting families, etc.

Your comment is like saying, "The Hebrews had a higher standard of rape and murder".
I suppose it is. Slavery is as horrendous as those other examples. All of the above is the result of one nation occupying another.

So I suppose the Hebrews should have opted out of taking any land as a possession of their own. Because you really can't take the land without doing *something* with the people who are living there already.

It's just so objectionable, right? I mean, we know better now. The Hebrews were had no right to military conquest. Nobody did. No one ever does. They should have all been nice to one a other and stayed on their own land.

Their choices were limited to slaughtering their neighbors (which they often did), enslaving them (they also did this), or leaving them alone.

Leaving them alone would ultimately backfire. The culture of the people they left alone would integrate together with theirs and they would no longer be a distinct nation.

In the ancient context, mixing cultures meant that one culture would die.

The Hebrews should have let themselves just die. Then they would have been a good example for us today.

But they didn't do that. They did what other nations did. They used military conquest to try to expand their border. Oh how despicable.
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Old 12-31-2012, 14:41   #63
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Okay, now that weíve agreed that Godís chosen people enslaved others, and that, in Exodus, God established his standards for the treatment of slaves, how do we reconcile Godís approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?

Keep in mind that Exodus 22 starts with, ďThen the LORD said to MosesĒ, and God lays down his laws (including the treatment of slaves) right through Exodus 31. That's your God talking. Better pay attention.
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:08   #64
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... how do we reconcile Godís approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:10   #65
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It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.


Well, as long as everyone else does it, it's not wrong.

Never knew God was a moral relativist.

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Old 12-31-2012, 15:15   #66
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Well, as long as everyone else does it, it's not wrong.

Never knew God was a moral relativist.

Randy
I think it was wrong *and* everyone did it. God makes concessions for things that are wrong. Concessions don't suddenly make immoral things moral. It just means that, given the mess you're in, here's what you do.
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:44   #67
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I believe, that there is no proof that proves or disproves the existence (or prior existence) of a deity.

I believe that atheism and theism are religious beliefs.
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:12   #68
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I believe, that there is no proof that proves or disproves the existence (or prior existence) of a deity.

I believe that atheism and theism are religious beliefs.
Yeah, we know.
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:31   #69
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Yeah, we know.
Glad I am being clear.

Are you bothered when people don't believe the same way you do, or more likely, the way you wish they would?

Enhance your calm, get over it.
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:19   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japle:
... how do we reconcile Godís approval of slavery with our disapproval of it?
Quote:
Response by inertia186:
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion? The methods may be despicable to us now, but that's how it was done back then.
Second of all, yes, I do approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion.
First of all, whatís that got to do with approving of slavery?

Your god not only allowed slavery to exist, he approved of it and set rules for slave owners. Trying to divert the conversation by bringing up war doesnít change that.
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:39   #71
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
It's simple. Do you approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion?
Do you believe Psalms 23?
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:46   #72
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I thought I'd share this poem that I heard many years ago. It was written during WW2, on the wall of a cellar, by a Jewish prisoner in the Cologne concentration camp.

"I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love,
even when there's no one there.
And I believe in God,
even when he is silent.

I believe through any trial,
there is always a way
But sometimes in this suffering
and hopeless despair
My heart cries for shelter,
to know someone's there
But a voice rises within me, saying hold on
my child, I'll give you strength,
I'll give you hope. Just stay a little while.

I believe in the sun
even when it is not shining
And I believe in love
even when there's no one there
But I believe in God
even when he is silent
I believe through any trial
there is always a way.

May there someday be sunshine
May there someday be happiness
May there someday be love
May there someday be peace...."

- Unknown
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Last edited by Line Rider; 12-31-2012 at 20:48..
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:55   #73
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Originally Posted by inertia186 View Post
I suppose it is. Slavery is as horrendous as those other examples. All of the above is the result of one nation occupying another.

So I suppose the Hebrews should have opted out of taking any land as a possession of their own. Because you really can't take the land without doing *something* with the people who are living there already.

It's just so objectionable, right? I mean, we know better now. The Hebrews were had no right to military conquest. Nobody did. No one ever does. They should have all been nice to one a other and stayed on their own land.

Their choices were limited to slaughtering their neighbors (which they often did), enslaving them (they also did this), or leaving them alone.

.
Apparently you are missing the point. The unbelievers here are trying to make God responsible for condoning slavery because He gave Israel rules to deal with slaves.

Slavery was not restricted to.Israel. It was universally practiced.

God was working within the framework of human culture at the time. Paul speaks about the Law of Moses as being a temporary bridge.

Galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
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Old 12-31-2012, 21:34   #74
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You're going to have to explain to me then, how bondservants and chattel slaves were sold in the same way.
That wasn't the claim you made. You claimed that slavery, and the attendant slave markets, of the ancient world were different than the more recent instances of slavery.
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I would maintain that they were not sold in the same way. For example, I don't think a bondservant would be traded for a chattel slave or via versa.
Even if true, how is this at all important to the topic we're discussing?
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I don't think the two systems were in any way "compatible" with one another.
Clearly they were as they managed to coexist for centuries, if not millenia.
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It seems like bondservants were a lot more formal a system. Chattel was pure racial/nationalistic oppression akin to genocide while debt slaves were simply an economic solution, albeit a distasteful one to our "modern standards."
Fascinating, but I have to ask again, how does this factor into the topic under discussion? Which is, if you've forgotten, Vic's contention that Christianity doesn't allow for people being treated like property.
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Old 12-31-2012, 21:38   #75
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
God was working within the framework of human culture at the time.
Why? Why couldn't God just tell His people the slavery was wrong and that they should knock it off? Why was the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe unable to come up with a solution better than slavery and genocide to provide for His people?
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Old 12-31-2012, 21:41   #76
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Originally Posted by Japle View Post
Second of all, yes, I do approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion.
First of all, whatís that got to do with approving of slavery?

Your god not only allowed slavery to exist, he approved of it and set rules for slave owners. Trying to divert the conversation by bringing up war doesnít change that.
You really don't know the connection between war and slavery?
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:37   #77
Japle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japle:
Second of all, yes, I do approve of nations protecting themselves from foreign invasion.
First of all, whatís that got to do with approving of slavery?

Your god not only allowed slavery to exist, he approved of it and set rules for slave owners. Trying to divert the conversation by bringing up war doesnít change that.
Quote:
Response by inertia186:
You really don't know the connection between war and slavery?
Once again trying to divert the conversation by talking about war.

If we're to believe the Bible, your god obviously approved of chattel slavery. Instead of telling his chosen people that slavery was wrong, he gave them a set of rules for keeping and buying and selling and killing their slaves. If you can't deal with that without changing the subject, just admit it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:06   #78
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If you can't deal with that without changing the subject, just admit it.
What if I'm really not changing the subject? What if there is a valid rationale?
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:17   #79
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What if I'm really not changing the subject? What if there is a valid rationale?
You're saying war justifies the abrogation of God's law.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:24   #80
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You're saying war justifies the abrogation of God's law.
Isn't that generally what people believe?
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