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Old 07-07-2012, 07:56   #41
Bren
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Having had family members who worked for ATF (but none who ever called it BATFE) I agree with pretty much everything the OP posted. I did have a family member who quit another federal agency over agents lying under oath and a supervisor insisting that she do the same, but I'm not aware of that among ATF agents. They are normally more highly respected among police, at least in me experience, than FBI/Secret Service/etc.

I didn't realize this was an ancient thread.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:36   #42
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Having had family members who worked for ATF (but none who ever called it BATFE) I agree with pretty much everything the OP posted. I did have a family member who quit another federal agency over agents lying under oath and a supervisor insisting that she do the same, but I'm not aware of that among ATF agents. They are normally more highly respected among police, at least in me experience, than FBI/Secret Service/etc.

I didn't realize this was an ancient thread.
Evidently you didn't see any of the Congressional hearings on The Weaver murders (Ruby Ridge) or Waco. ATF agents were caught lying and lied some-more to try to cover their lies. ATF shot the Weavers dog, an ol hound (hunting dog), because it was barking at them hiding in the woods. Weaver's 16 year old son saw someone shoot his dog form cover in the woods and shot back striking an ATF agent. The other agents shot him IN THE BACK as he ran for home. Yah they are really honorable people. And guess what their excuse was. "VE VERE ONLY FWOLLOWING ORDERS".

Which ones ARE honorable and which ones aren't? You can't tell until its to late. My bet is most will lie if order to or to cover their own arses.

Fast and Furious is a perfect example of honor within the ATF and the Justice Department in general.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:39   #43
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I think the troll has moved on since he got no traction here.
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Old 07-07-2012, 13:28   #44
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so the whole " shoestring is a machine gun" debacle is bush's fault?
+1....
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Old 07-07-2012, 18:07   #45
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however this is America and things must be regulated in order to keep order.
Pardner; ya lost me right there!!!

I have had a couple less than pleasant experiences with the ATF; didn't get the impression they supported the 2nd amendment, or any other part of the constitution.

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For that the BATFE uses Congressionally passed laws, the United States Code, and the Code of Federal Regulations. Constitutional, Criminal, and every other relevant type of lawyer has argued the legality of use of each of those 3 for firearms law enforcement countless times. The judiciary agrees that it is legal and constitutional. All three branches of Government agree on it, and as per our Constitution, I uphold all three, I did then I still do now.
No congress ever passed a law saying that having a single M-16 part in an AR-15 (and I think even in possession) made the rifle illegal, it is all BATF REGULATION.

I liked the M-16 sear and hammer because they were higher quality parts, better deeper hardening and could be polished for a smoother trigger pull. A guy I barely knew got caught with a home made silencer and told them I had M-16 parts in my ARs.

As soon as I had heard about the REGULATION I got rid of the parts and re-installed the AR parts. Nothing mattered to B(asterds of)ATF but trying to get me to confess in lue of actually finding parts installed or otherwise even though they trashed my place. I was harassed for years after, they would show up at the gun club where I shot and demand to inspect everything I had with me, I know they followed me from time to time....

I was working with the FBI and US Attorney's office on a telecommunications fraud case in the 80s when a proposal was in congress to roll the ATF into the FBI. Not a single FBI agent I dealt with wanted anything to do with an ATF agent (the breakup of ATT had recently happened and the FBI didn't know anything about telecommunications or what to look for in a fraud case so I volunteered to do a little seminar and had 16 agents attend) and I was dealing with the First Assistant US Attorney who didn't have anything to say about the ATF

If I found an ATF agent lost and dying of thirst in the desart; I wouldn't let him lick the sweat off my @

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Old 07-07-2012, 18:58   #46
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Evidently you didn't see any of the Congressional hearings on The Weaver murders (Ruby Ridge) or Waco. ATF agents were caught lying and lied some-more to try to cover their lies. ATF shot the Weavers dog, an ol hound (hunting dog), because it was barking at them hiding in the woods. Weaver's 16 year old son saw someone shoot his dog form cover in the woods and shot back striking an ATF agent. The other agents shot him IN THE BACK as he ran for home. Yah they are really honorable people. And guess what their excuse was. "VE VERE ONLY FWOLLOWING ORDERS".

Which ones ARE honorable and which ones aren't? You can't tell until its to late. My bet is most will lie if order to or to cover their own arses.

Fast and Furious is a perfect example of honor within the ATF and the Justice Department in general.
Approaching a house during a raid. Silence is everything. Shooting a barking dog? What's wrong with that? Human life more important than a dog. Someone shooting at the agents. The son. And agents shooting an armed person who just shot one of there agents? What's wrong with that? If he 's old enough to shoot, he's old enough to kill too.

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Old 07-07-2012, 19:00   #47
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Pardner; ya lost me right there!!!

I have had a couple less than pleasant experiences with the ATF; didn't get the impression they supported the 2nd amendment, or any other part of the constitution.



No congress ever passed a law saying that having a single M-16 part in an AR-15 (and I think even in possession) made the rifle illegal, it is all BATF REGULATION.

I liked the M-16 sear and hammer because they were higher quality parts, better deeper hardening and could be polished for a smoother trigger pull. A guy I barely knew got caught with a home made silencer and told them I had M-16 parts in my ARs.

As soon as I had heard about the REGULATION I got rid of the parts and re-installed the AR parts. Nothing mattered to B(asterds of)ATF but trying to get me to confess in lue of actually finding parts installed or otherwise even though they trashed my place. I was harassed for years after, they would show up at the gun club where I shot and demand to inspect everything I had with me, I know they followed me from time to time....

I was working with the FBI and US Attorney's office on a telecommunications fraud case in the 80s when a proposal was in congress to roll the ATF into the FBI. Not a single FBI agent I dealt with wanted anything to do with an ATF agent (the breakup of ATT had recently happened and the FBI didn't know anything about telecommunications or what to look for in a fraud case so I volunteered to do a little seminar and had 16 agents attend) and I was dealing with the First Assistant US Attorney who didn't have anything to say about the ATF

If I found an ATF agent lost and dying of thirst in the desart; I wouldn't let him lick the sweat off my @
I'm sorry to hear of what happened to you, however I'm glad to have someone here that can actually attest to ATF's "over zealous" enforcement. A few years ago someone had his safe torn apart buy the jaws of life in the hands of ATF after he offered to open the safe for them. He to was "turned in" by an informant fore something he didn't have. Didn't stop the from destroying his safe and tearing his house up.

Years ago, before it became illegal I ordered a M 16 fire-control. Of course I got a visit even though it was legal. Like you when it became illegal I clunked them and put the stock parts back in.

Thankfully my only horror story concerns NISC. Hold! Hold! Hold!
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Old 07-07-2012, 19:08   #48
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Approaching a house during a raid. Silence is everything. Shooting a barking dog? What's wrong with that? Human life more important than a dog. Someone shooting at the agents. The son. And agents shooting an armed person who just shot one of there agents? What's wrong with that? If he 's old enough to shoot, he's old enough to kill too.
If you don't see what's wrong with that you're part of the problem. Do you know the story of what happened to the Weavers. If you do and you agree with it... GT rules won't allow me to tell you what I'd like to. I'll tell you this much. Come on my property and shoot one of my dogs and I will rain hellfire down on you. Come on my property, don't identify yourself and start shooting you'd better be prepared to receive return fire.

Randy Weaver nor any of the Weavers had done anything violent. They went to town quite often. In fact Randy and his wife had been stopped and PEACEFULLY taken into custody on a bridge while on their way to town previously. There was no cause/need for a "stealth" raid by JBT ATF agents on their home.

However ATF and the FBI sure saw a need to lie to Congress about what happened. I wonder why that was. Randy was acquitted in criminal court and then won a civil suit against the government. I wonder why. Could it be because his wife and son were MURDERED by JBT.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:30   #49
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Serious question: Who started this requirement for imported firearms to have a "sporting purpose"?

The ATF or congress or who?
Congress. I've seen a lot of legislation going back to the 1968 GCA.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:36   #50
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If you don't see what's wrong with that you're part of the problem. Do you know the story of what happened to the Weavers.
Massive screwup by the feds, along with some bad-faith actions.

First, they had an undercover agent hound him to saw off a shotgun. Then, they gave him the wrong court date, which is (I think) why they sent a raiding party. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the wrong court date...

Somewhat similar to the case involving regular police shooting an elderly woman when they did a no-knock drug raid on the wrong address. She fired at what was from her reasonable view, a home invasion.

They had the gall to charge her, but they were dropped. I don't know how that happened, grand jury or a good lawyer with public pressure.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:38   #51
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Massive screwup by the feds, along with some bad-faith actions.

First, they had an undercover agent hound him to saw off a shotgun. Then, they gave him the wrong court date, which is (I think) why they sent a raiding party. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the wrong court date...

Somewhat similar to the case involving regular police shooting an elderly woman when they did a no-knock drug raid on the wrong address. She fired at what was from her reasonable view, a home invasion.

They had the gall to charge her, but they were dropped. I don't know how that happened, grand jury or a good lawyer with public pressure.
Too bad dpadams6 doesn't/didn't know that or doesn't understand what was wrong with those actions.
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Old 12-19-2012, 19:42   #52
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If I'm not mistaken, a federal court ruled that the branch davidians committed no crime when those 4 atf agents were killed because the executed the warrant improperly, thus illegally, and the compound residents actually had the right to defend themselves because no one in the atf initially identified themselves as Leos. Further, that dude that was attorney general at the time was disciplined before senate hearing committee for using national guard armaments against US citizens, which by the way is a crime.

I don't believe all atf is bad, but you could not have been there for all of it to be able to say that they acted 100% appropriately in their actions. It's tragic, to be sure, that anyone got killed, including the agents, but they acted stupidly and brought it on themselves, just as you say Koresh did. I won't even bring up the infrared aerial surveillance video that shows canisters being lobbed into the structures seconds before the infernoes erupted.

You're loyal to your organization, and that's awesome... but using ruby ridge as a point maker... probably should have left that one out. The atf committed murder and janet reno authorized it during that siege... its indisputable. The only ones held accountable... branch davidians.
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Old 12-20-2012, 06:10   #53
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I know I'm going to get flamed here, but I figure its worth while to show how the real BATFE, not the political appointees that you all (and everyone in the Bureau) hate.

If anyone wants to make an adult argument against the BATFE's existence, I would be more then happy to listen to it, on three conditions:
1) You pay a $200 tax stamp to me and fill out a form with a 6 month turn around time.
2) Read my post first, because it will address a number of concerns.
3) Have proof, and be an adult with your argument, please do not slander the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect (believe it or not) your lawful use and ownership of firearms.
I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

The problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws our elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.
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Old 12-22-2012, 14:47   #54
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Nice to know. Thanks for your service,stay safe. Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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Old 01-02-2013, 14:06   #55
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SAs don't lie???

Huh??? ATF is full of thugs and liars. If you need examples get a beer or two and begin reading LINK & LINK get an eyeful at cleanupatf.org
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Old 01-02-2013, 16:36   #56
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I'm not doing any of those things.

But,

he problem with ATF is the same as the problems with police, we see here. Most posters can't separate the law and lawmakers' decisions from those who enforce them.

We collectively elect lawmakers. They make laws. We collectively hire people to enforce them. Then we blame the people we hired to enforce them, for the laws out elected lawmakers made.

To make it a step stupider - here at Glock Talk, we also blame LE for not ignoring the bad laws...and the same people blame them for ignoring the laws they didn't want ignored. This forum is (literally) at least half populated by children.
But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them.
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Old 01-02-2013, 16:57   #57
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But isn't it funny what laws they DO pick and choose and when and where NOT to enforce. Isn't it funny how they can openly brake the law and the administration, courts nor Congress punish them.
Still waiting to hear that Gregory has been arrested and charged with violating DC's "high capacity" magazine ban. And I suspect one or more additional NBC:Meet the Press employees were involved. I doubt that Gregoru went to a LGS and bought it...all were probably sold out by that time.


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Old 01-02-2013, 17:37   #58
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Here's my question for the BATFE..

About 8 years ago while I was out of state, my home was broken into. I got a call from family, and quickly called a friend of mine on the LEO as he knew I have a large gun collection. He notified the officers responding to check on my collection. I had an FN FAL out of the safe as there wasn't any room for it. (My mistake). When they got there the FN FAL was sitting by the broken front door. The LEO's that were there spotted my ammo crate marke 81mm HE and called in the Bomb squad and the BATFE. As I'm driving back to my state, I'm on the phone with a Capt. of my LEO and she said my master bedroom was one of the few rooms the suspects did not enter. But she wanted to know what was in the locked ammo crate. I told her it's contents. Military maps, etc.. left over from my service and she could pop it open and check it out if it made her feel better. While all this was going on I had a friend go to my house to represent me, and take custody of my too scared to death dogs. Meanwhile he observed, the Leo run a K-9 through my house (which took a dump in my office), and saw BATFE and the LEO ransacking my house. Not only did they do a thorough ransacking, they even crawled under it through my crawl space to see if I had a hidden basement. (In Florida) In the end, BATF took my FN-FAL with them. The had asked me over the phone where my keys were to the gun safe, but I had those on me. However, someone attempted to drill out the lock, yet when the burglars saw the cops they ran off, and didn't leave behind any drills or tools. When I got home they were all gone and my home was trashed! I took pictures of every room including my master bedroom that was NEVER touched by the suspects. Every bed in my home was tossed including the Master bedroom. Every dresser drawer in the house was also tossed including the master bedroom. And to add insult to injury, when I called the BATFE about my FN-FAL, they said they didn't take it, it was my LEO. When I called my LEO, they said BATFE took it. I contacted my buddies in the LEO and one of them works in the evidence room and verified that it wasn't there, that BATFE infact did take it with them.

As you can see here, this leaves me with many questions.

So after I lawyered up. The guys on my LEO told me who to FAX my hate letter too. I faxed everyone from my LEO's internal affairs, BATFE internal affairs, Mayor, District, and state attorneys, and just about everyone else I could think of.

So my questions are:

Why didn't BATFE get a warrant to search my home? They had plenty of time as I was 8 hours away.

And why did the BATFE lie about having my FN-FAL?

Two days after my faxing furry, a BATFE supervisor was at my front door handing me my rifle. Yes he was polite and appologised, and he explained that his agents are not experts on firearms. Often they don't know what they are looking at, and take the firearm to their expert who examines the weapon to see if any crime has been committed. This I understand, but saying your agency doesn't have it, and also searching without a warrant is troubling.

I don't have any hate torwards the agency. My LEO friends said these were all Good Cops that just made bad choices, and the Capt. on the scene should have watched them closer as she's the one who should know better than all of them. They also explained that if the suspects touched something, then thats reason to examine the object. Fine then, but why did they want to get into my locked gun safe then? It's locked. The suspects didn't touch any of the contents.... Also why did they ransack a room that the suspects never went into? They even ransacked my wifes "Naughty drawer!".. LOL

And to make matters even worse, the LEO's on the scene found a S&W 9mm on the floor of my kids room. When the Crime scene tech picked it up, she shot a hole through my wall and couch.... They bought me a new couch....

Ok. Questions done. I got my firearm back. Got 3 more safes, and an alarm that calls ME, and not the cops.

Again, no hate. But who's in charge there???
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Old 01-02-2013, 23:26   #59
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Prior to1986, class 2 manufacturer makes a 5 gallon bucket full of M-16 auto sears and marks them all with serial numbers. He submitted all the paperwork to BATF several times and they continue to "lose" the paperwork. So he sends it in a diplomatic pouch from his senator's office directly to BATF.

A few weeks later, agents show up at his shop with pre-typed violations, do a bogus audit where"Bill" catches them trying to pocket auto-sears and as they leave, one great "advocate" of the 2nd amendment says "you complain too much."

Bill is issued a revocation of his FFL license, goes through hearings and U.S. District court where the judge rules that there were no violations, but she'll let the revocation stand.

So screw you and the rest of your buddy-so-called patriots and protectors of the 2nd Amendment. You are either naive and ignorant (or just plain stupid) or a bald-faced liar.
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Old 01-03-2013, 00:46   #60
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Wow! I'm not even going to bring up the SRT Supply frackus a few years back.

You guys can google that one...


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