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Old 01-08-2013, 17:26   #126
Harper
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Don't take this as an insult, because it is not meant to be. But, this is seriously what TBO meant by real world experience.

Yes...I've responded to murders over less than $50 worth of dope. Yes...Junkies will go through your unlocked car for the change or GPS units just to buy a $10 bag of dope. Yes...your nephew will steal your iPad to pawn and then get enough dope to last him 2 days.

Heroin has a tolerance like any other opiate. When you start, $10-20 bucks a day can get you messed up all day long. Before you know it - you are using $100 worth just to keep off your sickness and withdrawal. It's a nasty world....
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To the extent that prohibitions result in increased prices, they produce increased crime and political corruption. Higher prices for a prohibited product also result in the substitution of related products and the innovation of more dangerous substitutes. Prohibited products tend to be more dangerous than legal substitutes in many respects, the result of prohibition, not the product itself.
From economist Mark Thornton - Auburn University
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Old 01-08-2013, 17:32   #127
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
Can you please advise of the joint smoker in prison??


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Here are federal sentencing guidelines:

http://norml.org/laws/item/federal-penalties-2

As you can see, 3rd offense can get you 3 yrs in the federal system. If there is a gun in the house there is another MANDATORY aggravated sentence. Also, many smokers grow at home..

The federal system has a whole bunch of pot smokers in it.

ARS
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Old 01-08-2013, 17:51   #128
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Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
I haven't heard of ANYONE saying we should legalize all drugs, only marijuana.

Let's flip this statement around and say "Yep, let's make drugs illegal". Where has that gotten us so far? We should be treating drug users, not arresting them (for drug possession/use/abuse).
It's just an opinion of course, but I'm thinking that if all drugs were legal and OTC, there would be a learning curve but the gene pool would start to clear in a few years. The jails would be near empty, allowing LE to concentrate on criminals.
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Old 01-08-2013, 17:55   #129
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Okay, your plan is to decriminalize the possession and use of all drugs, right?

Next, your plan removes all subsidies for the treatment of drug users. Treatment, does that include counselling to prevent use, too?

Your plan's success is predicated on drug users dying, they die off.

Is there more that I did not mention?
Good argument Russ, I agree that people who are going to choose dumb over smart will smash their fingers in the truck door more often than not. The pain will cure the smarter ones.

Think also that the Government services related to drugs should not stop but would dramatically reduce themselves.
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Old 01-08-2013, 17:59   #130
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Here are federal sentencing guidelines:

http://norml.org/laws/item/federal-penalties-2

As you can see, 3rd offense can get you 3 yrs in the federal system. If there is a gun in the house there is another MANDATORY aggravated sentence. Also, many smokers grow at home..

The federal system has a whole bunch of pot smokers in it.

ARS
Ok. You've shown me the federal sentencing guidelines. Show me the "joint smoker" doing prison time. Just for smoking a J on the street.
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Old 01-08-2013, 18:00   #131
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Right no one cares. Such the elitist. Maybe you can't see all the miltary units I served in under my signature.

Clearly only you can save us by accepting the blatant violations of our laws.

How does it feel that no matter how much you type, you're still wrong?
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Old 01-08-2013, 18:03   #132
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Originally Posted by syntaxerrorsix View Post
O so clearly now my profession comes into play? I can't point out clear violations of our judicial system without being a LEO?..

?
You are more than welcome to and I admire your persistence. However what you think it means and what hundreds of thousands who have advanced degrees in law, teach law, and read, interpret and administer it daily apparently think it means something different than do you.



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Originally Posted by aspartz View Post
Here are federal sentencing guidelines:

http://norml.org/laws/item/federal-penalties-2

As you can see, 3rd offense can get you 3 yrs in the federal system. If there is a gun in the house there is another MANDATORY aggravated sentence. Also, many smokers grow at home..

The federal system has a whole bunch of pot smokers in it.

ARS
Still I wonder how many of them are there because their only crime was using recreational amounts in the confines of their own home.
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Old 01-08-2013, 19:01   #133
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Okay, your plan is to decriminalize the possession and use of all drugs, right?

Next, your plan removes all subsidies for the treatment of drug users. Treatment, does that include counselling to prevent use, too?

Your plan's success is predicated on drug users dying, they die off.

Is there more that I did not mention?
The first part of the plan is follow the guidelines set forth by the Constitution. What the States do next is up to them and their citizens. My choice would be to defund social programs that enable addicts.

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How does it feel that no matter how much you type, you're still wrong?
Everything I stated was factual. Your perversion of the facts and your justification for it only confirm what I already knew.

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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
You are more than welcome to and I admire your persistence. However what you think it means and what hundreds of thousands who have advanced degrees in law, teach law, and read, interpret and administer it daily apparently think it means something different than do you.



Still I wonder how many of them are there because their only crime was using recreational amounts in the confines of their own home.
If you can't point out the provisions in the COTUS that allow for these "interpretations" then it's a safe bet they can't either. If a hundreds of thousands of people can point to provisions such as the power of judicial review and the circumvention of the COTUS then you may have an argument. Thing is you can't and neither can they. You have merely accepted it and gave up. That doesn't make you any less wrong.
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Old 01-08-2013, 19:09   #134
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Really, great thread and arguments. Still no one has justified the usurpation of the 10A or pointed out the constitutionality of the Judicial Branch of government granting itself a power not delegated to it.

Pretty much the basis for the entire argument. Not one single factual debate from any of you. Half of you will be complaining about some law or violation of right tomorrow but will fail to see the relevance of the conversation. Sad.
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Old 01-08-2013, 19:20   #135
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I think its pretty obvious using meth and heroin recreationally doesn't do anything positive for anyone. Good thing marijuana isn't a drug.

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Old 01-08-2013, 20:20   #136
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For the sake of efficiency, and a solution that would actually work...

You could legalize whichever drugs your wanted, but then...
Establish a list of substances that if found in your system will nullify your Obamacare/health insurance, revoke your EBT card, cancel any and all gov't monies or benefits you receive for anything, and lose your right to vote, all for the next five years. Additionally, change the three-strikes-and-you're-out law to three-strikes-and-you're-dead. I predict a sharp increase in crime for the very short term, followed by a long, slow decrease, ultimately resulting in tax savings and gene-pool cleansing and a lower crime rate.

The Dems will never go for it, though, because their constituency would all be dead.
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Old 01-08-2013, 20:35   #137
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The first part of the plan is follow the guidelines set forth by the Constitution. What the States do next is up to them and their citizens. My choice would be to defund social programs that enable addicts.
So you really are not so much for decriminalizing the manufacturing, distribution, sale, and use of drugs, you just want the federal government to cede that power to the states. You want each of the states to decide on their own whether the manufacturing, distribution, sale, and use of drugs should be permitted.

However, regardless of the laws, you want all programs related to treatment of drug users defunded. When you say defunded, do you mean private funding as well as tax dollar funding?

What about international suppliers? Who gets to deal with the flow of drugs from sources outside our international borders?
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Old 01-08-2013, 20:52   #138
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Still I wonder how many of them are there because their only crime was using recreational amounts in the confines of their own home.
I used to teach in a State prison. This prison was so bad that it was rated the most dangerous prison in the US.

I never met anyone who was there for just smoking MJ in their homes. That is a myth.
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Old 01-08-2013, 21:02   #139
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Just what form of protective bubble is going to be around these drugs, especially imported, that is going to render them the only substance, from apple juice to zucchini pickles including cold medication to cold crème, that you can put in or on your body, that will be free from Government inspection, regulation, and taxes to pay for the first two?

do you think the pharmaceutical, tobacco and alcohol industries are going to stand by and do nothing wile they are being taxed on their products?

All of this is going to keep it "cheap' right?

How is the importation going to work legally? what about States that don't legalize it but are trafficked through by folks transporting?
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:55   #140
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If anyone thinks that meth, crack, cocaine, herione, or anything like that should be legal they are crazy. Ive never seen pot do that to anyone like in the photos. A lot of people covet their alcohol, but condemn pot users. That is just silly. Pot should, and will eventually be legal.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:18   #141
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I used to teach in a State prison. This prison was so bad that it was rated the most dangerous prison in the US.

I never met anyone who was there for just smoking MJ in their homes. That is a myth.
That makes sense. You would think that those arrested solely for MJ use/possession would be in a county jail, not be in a max security state jail, if they ever were caught at all.

Anyone who thinks that there aren't a LOT of otherwise law abiding, clean cut people out there that smoke MJ in the privacy of their own home and stays out of trouble is jaded by whatever LE job or just out of touch with reality. I have known quite a few people who do so and will never ever be caught unless they are caught while buying, because they just stay out of trouble and fly under the radar. They haven't affected your perception of pot smokers because you never realized anything was different about them. I don't think anything less of them for doing so. It would be hypocritical of me to judge them with a drink in my hand.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:21   #142
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Do you drink more than 4 beers during the Sunday NFL games? Did you have more than 4 watching the BCS Monday night?

You are a binge drinker

http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/bingedrinking/

New estimates show that binge drinking* is a bigger problem than previously thought. More than 38 million US adults binge drink, about 4 times a month, and the largest number of drinks per binge is on average 8. This behavior greatly increases the chances of getting hurt or hurting others due to car crashes, violence, and suicide. Drinking too much, including binge drinking, causes 80,000 deaths in the US each year and, in 2006 cost the economy $223.5 billion. Binge drinking is a problem in all states, even in states with fewer binge drinkers, because they are binging more often and in larger amounts.

*Binge drinking means men drinking 5 or more alcoholic drinks within a short period of time or women drinking 4 or more drinks within a short period of time.
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Last edited by dbcooper; 01-09-2013 at 07:22..
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:29   #143
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I was just thinking about how some people are judgmental of MJ users while thinking nothing of having a drink or smoke another plant called tobacco (also drugs) or of taking prescription drugs with a long list of side effects, but somehow this plant is bad. I wonder how many prescription drug companies that stand to lose a lot of money to legalized MJ have been quietly pumping money into lobbying against it?

Just like guns, its not the MJ that's evil, its the user.

Regarding any other illegal drugs, they should stay that way IMO.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:30   #144
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It's not the drugs. It's the users.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:46   #145
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Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
I was just thinking about how some people are judgmental of MJ users while thinking nothing of having a drink or smoke another plant called tobacco (also drugs) or of taking prescription drugs with a long list of side effects, but somehow this plant is bad. I wonder how many prescription drug companies that stand to lose a lot of money to legalized MJ have been quietly pumping money into lobbying against it?

Just like guns, its not the MJ that's evil, its the user.

Regarding any other illegal drugs, they should stay that way IMO.
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/in-t...l-tobacco.html

The idea that alcohol and tobacco companies would oppose looser restrictions on marijuana may seem odd. After all, both industries are in the business of making people feel good. But a number of researchers have found that pot turns out to be more of a substitute for alcohol and tobacco than a complement. In 2009, Amanda Reiman, a UC Berkeley social scientist, published a study in the Harm Reduction Journal showing that 40 percent of her patient population had substituted cannabis for booze at some point. Other studies found that when pot smokers can’t find marijuana they binge drink instead. Simply put: the tobacco and alcohol companies are worried about losing market share to weed.
In 1991, NORML used a Freedom of Information Act request to examine the funding records of the Partnership for a Drug-Free America, a nonprofit that provides anti-drug resources to parents. They discovered that 50 percent of the organization’s capital came from the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries. So embarrassing was this revelation that, according to St. Pierre, “ever since, these industries have tried to hide their marijuana opposition.”

http://www.republicreport.org/2012/m...lobby-illegal/

However, we at Republic Report think it’s worth showing that there are entrenched interest groups that are spending large sums of money to keep our broken drug laws on the books:
1.) Police Unions: Police departments across the country have become dependent on federal drug war grants to finance their budget. In March, we published a story revealing that a police union lobbyist in California coordinated the effort to defeat Prop 19, a ballot measure in 2010 to legalize marijuana, while helping his police department clients collect tens of millions in federal marijuana-eradication grants. And it’s not just in California. Federal lobbying disclosures show that other police union lobbyists have pushed for stiffer penalties for marijuana-related crimes nationwide.
2.) Private Prisons Corporations: Private prison corporations make millions by incarcerating people who have been imprisoned for drug crimes, including marijuana. As Republic Report’s Matt Stoller noted last year, Corrections Corporation of America, one of the largest for-profit prison companies, revealed in a regulatory filing that continuing the drug war is part in parcel to their business strategy. Prison companies have spent millions bankrolling pro-drug war politicians and have used secretive front groups, like the American Legislative Exchange Council, to pass harsh sentencing requirements for drug crimes.
3.) Alcohol and Beer Companies: Fearing competition for the dollars Americans spend on leisure, alcohol and tobacco interests have lobbied to keep marijuana out of reach. For instance, the California Beer & Beverage Distributors contributed campaign contributions to a committee set up to prevent marijuana from being legalized and taxed.
4.) Pharmaceutical Corporations: Like the sin industries listed above, pharmaceutical interests would like to keep marijuana illegal so American don’t have the option of cheap medical alternatives to their products. Howard Wooldridge, a retired police officer who now lobbies the government to relax marijuana prohibition laws, told Republic Report that next to police unions, the “second biggest opponent on Capitol Hill is big PhRMA” because marijuana can replace “everything from Advil to Vicodin and other expensive pills.”
5.) Prison Guard Unions: Prison guard unions have a vested interest in keeping people behind bars just like for-profit prison companies. In 2008, the California Correctional Peace Officers Association spent a whopping $1 million to defeat a measure that would have “reduced sentences and parole times for nonviolent drug offenders while emphasizing drug treatment over prison.”
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:40   #146
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The people who scream the loudest for decriminalization are the furthest from having to deal with it.

Those on here who scream about the legalization of drugs and how it is unconstitutional have never had to tell parents that their 17 YO daughter overdosed and was found dead in a Walmart bathroom.




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Old 01-09-2013, 08:52   #147
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
So you really are not so much for decriminalizing the manufacturing, distribution, sale, and use of drugs, you just want the federal government to cede that power to the states. You want each of the states to decide on their own whether the manufacturing, distribution, sale, and use of drugs should be permitted.
That is what the Constitution mandates.

Quote:
However, regardless of the laws, you want all programs related to treatment of drug users defunded. When you say defunded, do you mean private funding as well as tax dollar funding?
Defund all taxpayer-funded social programs.

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What about international suppliers? Who gets to deal with the flow of drugs from sources outside our international borders?
That is clearly fed territory. No issues with regulating importation of cocaine, heroine or foreign weed, mexican meth, etc.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:54   #148
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Originally Posted by dbcooper View Post
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/in-t...l-tobacco.html

The idea that alcohol and tobacco companies would oppose looser restrictions on marijuana may seem odd. After all, both industries are in the business of making people feel good. But a number of researchers have found that pot turns out to be more of a substitute for alcohol and tobacco than a complement. In 2009, Amanda Reiman, a UC Berkeley social scientist, published a study in the Harm Reduction Journal showing that 40 percent of her patient population had substituted cannabis for booze at some point. Other studies found that when pot smokers can’t find marijuana they binge drink instead. Simply put: the tobacco and alcohol companies are worried about losing market share to weed.
In 1991, NORML used a Freedom of Information Act request to examine the funding records of the Partnership for a Drug-Free America, a nonprofit that provides anti-drug resources to parents. They discovered that 50 percent of the organization’s capital came from the alcohol, tobacco and pharmaceutical industries. So embarrassing was this revelation that, according to St. Pierre, “ever since, these industries have tried to hide their marijuana opposition.”

http://www.republicreport.org/2012/m...lobby-illegal/

However, we at Republic Report think it’s worth showing that there are entrenched interest groups that are spending large sums of money to keep our broken drug laws on the books:
1.) Police Unions: Police departments across the country have become dependent on federal drug war grants to finance their budget. In March, we published a story revealing that a police union lobbyist in California coordinated the effort to defeat Prop 19, a ballot measure in 2010 to legalize marijuana, while helping his police department clients collect tens of millions in federal marijuana-eradication grants. And it’s not just in California. Federal lobbying disclosures show that other police union lobbyists have pushed for stiffer penalties for marijuana-related crimes nationwide.
2.) Private Prisons Corporations: Private prison corporations make millions by incarcerating people who have been imprisoned for drug crimes, including marijuana. As Republic Report’s Matt Stoller noted last year, Corrections Corporation of America, one of the largest for-profit prison companies, revealed in a regulatory filing that continuing the drug war is part in parcel to their business strategy. Prison companies have spent millions bankrolling pro-drug war politicians and have used secretive front groups, like the American Legislative Exchange Council, to pass harsh sentencing requirements for drug crimes.
3.) Alcohol and Beer Companies: Fearing competition for the dollars Americans spend on leisure, alcohol and tobacco interests have lobbied to keep marijuana out of reach. For instance, the California Beer & Beverage Distributors contributed campaign contributions to a committee set up to prevent marijuana from being legalized and taxed.
4.) Pharmaceutical Corporations: Like the sin industries listed above, pharmaceutical interests would like to keep marijuana illegal so American don’t have the option of cheap medical alternatives to their products. Howard Wooldridge, a retired police officer who now lobbies the government to relax marijuana prohibition laws, told Republic Report that next to police unions, the “second biggest opponent on Capitol Hill is big PhRMA” because marijuana can replace “everything from Advil to Vicodin and other expensive pills.”
5.) Prison Guard Unions: Prison guard unions have a vested interest in keeping people behind bars just like for-profit prison companies. In 2008, the California Correctional Peace Officers Association spent a whopping $1 million to defeat a measure that would have “reduced sentences and parole times for nonviolent drug offenders while emphasizing drug treatment over prison.”
I pointed out recently in another thread that police officers and police departments have a financial interest in DUI checkpoints continuing.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:15   #149
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To save time, I just want to reference my comments the last 87 times this topic was discussed.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:25   #150
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Why did it take an amendment to the Constitution to prohibit beverage alcohol but not to prohibit other recreational drugs, most of which were in use when the 18th amendment was passed?


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