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Old 01-19-2013, 07:06   #221
ksg0245
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Neither are many scholarly texts. Have you read a high school history or government book recently. Talk about slanted.

One thing I'm pretty sure if is that humans have a very hard time reaching perfection.
Many theists claim the Bible is the infallible word of God. If the bible isn't infallible, that calls into question any assertions based on it, in the same way inaccuracies in a history book render the whole suspect.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:31   #222
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Many theists claim the Bible is the infallible word of God. If the bible isn't infallible, that calls into question any assertions based on it, in the same way inaccuracies in a history book render the whole suspect.
I'm guessing you meant Christian's and Jews? Not just theists.

Obvious political leanings and bias in a history book discussing the civil rights movement doesn't mean that there weren't any people here during that time period.

Just my own suspicion here, but claiming infallibility is only useful in controlling others. It doesn't take long in life to realize the problems with man made documents. Name any revered text or document, and you will find imperfections. Even the Constitution is flawed. There are misspelled words and a couple bad ideas. I see the same thing in people claiming that the founding fathers spoke with one voice.

But flaws in a story, and understanding the human penchant for using analogies, metaphors, and difficulties in telling a story over many generations.... It's a wash. Animal farm is a work of fiction, but there are some very good lessons held within.

So, if someone told me that the bible was a perfect text, and is meant to be followed to the letter and taken literally, I'm going to find myself wondering how much they question things. Same goes for a torah, quran, or any of L. Ron Hubbard's books. As a liberty issue, I don't think I have a responsibility to dissuade them from believing it's perfect, as long as they aren't planning on hurting anyone because of it. Those guys, you have to handle a little differently. But even that's not my job, not anymore any way.

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Old 01-19-2013, 07:31   #223
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Neither are many scholarly texts. Have you read a high school history or government book recently. Talk about slanted.

One thing I'm pretty sure if is that humans have a very hard time reaching perfection.
Yeah but they don't claim to be the perfect word of an infallible being.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:36   #224
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By Golly, do you mean to say that all laws ultimately result in compliance or death?
You gave away the ending. Not sure it matters though, he either missed post 211, or just stopped responding when he seen where it was going.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:36   #225
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Yeah but they don't claim to be the perfect word of an infallible being.
I'm thinking we are in agreement in the validity of that claim. People get stuff wrong. But even though the bible is flawed, is it still possible the christian god exists, but has been poorly described by man?
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:44   #226
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I'm thinking we are in agreement in the validity of that claim. People get stuff wrong. But even though the bible is flawed, is it still possible the christian god exists, but has been poorly described by man?
Yes.



.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:59   #227
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Yes.



.


Before anyone extrapolates too far on that, even if the bible was absolutely correct, no misspellings, and historical references were corroborated by unrelated disinterested third party texts, no contradictions, that doesn't prove that a christian god exists either. It's a choice people make to learn about and believe what they want. Choice is generally a good thing.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:18   #228
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More accurately, finding even quite a few innacuracies in a text that was compiled by many men doesn't even prove the Christian god does not exist, let alone rule out theism.
And just because two blokes in the UK have shown how they made crop circles it doesn't mean that Romulans from the Alpha Centauri sector have not made some of the crop circles.

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Let's not get hung up on this, but "disbelief" is a conscious act, while lacking belief is not.
If you don't want to get hung up on quibbling over that why bring it up? You have done a great job of getting the resident leftards to chase their tails over that one.
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Back to the point. Have you noticed how often people use analogies, metaphors and stories (real, hypothetical and fictional) to get a point across or to teach a lesson. I've never looked at any old texts and expected them to be completely accurate. Not to mention that word of mouth generational story telling and translation issues were bound to change things over time. Even people that speak the same language from the same area have miscommunication. Add a little distance and it can even get funny. If a British lady asks you to come by her hotel room in the morning to knock her up, it might not mean what you first might think.
I read Charlotte's Web when I was 7 or 8. Even though I enjoyed reading the book it did not convince me that pigs and spiders talk to each other or that a spider is capable of mastering the alphabet to the point of deliberately making a web that spells out SOME PIG.

Tales of strange ladies lying in ponds distributing swords is not a valid basis for government IMO. YMMV.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:25   #229
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I'm thinking we are in agreement in the validity of that claim. People get stuff wrong. But even though the bible is flawed, is it still possible the christian god exists, but has been poorly described by man?
Yes. It is also possible that Romulans from the Alpha Centauri Sector have been on earth making crop circles.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:27   #230
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Even that peasant knew about the violence inherent in the system.
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Last edited by Syclone538; 01-19-2013 at 08:28..
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:46   #231
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I'm thinking we are in agreement in the validity of that claim. People get stuff wrong. But even though the bible is flawed, is it still possible the christian god exists, but has been poorly described by man?
At the risk of getting sucked into this argument I don't really care about . . . If the only extant "contemporary" text of the christian god is demonstrably in error, why should we continue to prop it up over other religious texts or a natural explanation?
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:58   #232
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Even that peasant knew about the violence inherent in the system.
That scene is classic.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:05   #233
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You gave away the ending. Not sure it matters though, he either missed post 211, or just stopped responding when he seen where it was going.
Sorry. I made the mistake of replying to this thread about sixty-two pages back and am getting tired of seeing it show up in my reply list. I am eager to see it reach a conclusion where everyone shakes hand hands and says "Yep, that's the answer."
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:08   #234
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Sorry. I made the mistake of replying to this thread about sixty-two pages back and am getting tired of seeing it show up in my reply list. I am eager to see it reach a conclusion where everyone shakes hand hands and says "Yep, that's the answer."


I'm sure it's right around the corner. Just give us a couple more days and we will all agree on everything.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:08   #235
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I do, but that is completely unrelated to what I'm trying to show you.
So you're an anarchist? No rules... do what you want... buyer beware?


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What if they practice medicine out of their house for cash only. They display the license that you have revoked, because they still have the piece of paper. They pay all taxes owed, but are extremely careful not to pay any extra so you can't get the money that way. They withdrew all their money before you froze their accounts, have cash on hand and do not need to borrow any. What do you do next?
Those kinds of people get caught often. You read about Plastic Surgeons operating out of apartments. There are laws that deal with that. I would imagine it involves jail time. Once identified and dealt with accordingly in our justice system, any remaining property could be seized to satisfy the debt.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:24   #236
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So you're an anarchist? No rules... do what you want... buyer beware?
...
No, I'm libertarian. There should be laws against murder, theft, rape, fraud, stuff like that.

Do not initiate force against someone else.

If you want to do something that doesn't hurt anyone else you should be free to do it.

Someone providing a good or service is voluntary, customers are free to do business with them, or not. Why bring the force of government into it?

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...
Those kinds of people get caught often. You read about Plastic Surgeons operating out of apartments. There are laws that deal with that. I would imagine it involves jail time. Once identified and dealt with accordingly in our justice system, any remaining property could be seized to satisfy the debt.
And when he does not surrender to the cop you send to his house?

You really have to see where I'm going now, especially if you are reading comments from others on this exercise.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:43   #237
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No, I'm libertarian. There should be laws against murder, theft, rape, fraud, stuff like that.
Practicing medicine without a license IS fraud.

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Do not initiate force against someone else.
And what if the person that commits fraud refuses to stop and refuses to submit to the justice system? You just tell them "Shame on you" and let'em go?

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If you want to do something that doesn't hurt anyone else you should be free to do it.
Practicing medicine without a license can most certainly harm someone. It can kill them.

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Someone providing a good or service is voluntary, customers are free to do business with them, or not. Why bring the force of government into it?
And if a person trusts a fraudulent medical practitioner because they talk a good game but really have no clue what they're doing? Then what? What happens when a person trusts an unlicensed medical practitioner and winds up with AIDS from unclean equipment? Or perhaps just loses a leg from gangrene from a botched surgical procedure? A mother takes her kid there because she can't afford the real hospital and the child dies from a misdiagnosis or improper treatment? You're way won't work my friend. People will take advantage of the lack or regulation and innocent people will get hurt or killed.


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And when he does not surrender to the cop you send to his house?

You really have to see where I'm going now, especially if you are reading comments from others on this exercise.
Of course I do but what you are advocating is bordering on anarchy. It can't work. People are the problem. "As long as it isn't hurting anyone." That's shaky ground. What about a child molester and the kid willingly participates and isn't hurt? The kid even says "I wanted it and agreed." That ok in your "As long as nobody gets hurt" society? I'm not suggesting that's your position. I'm asking. If NO... why? No one got hurt.

If you respond and I don't get back to you soon don't think I'm ignoring you. I just have a lot going on on the weekends. I'll get back to it if you reply.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:46   #238
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Religious Issues
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:53   #239
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Practicing medicine without a license IS fraud.



And what if the person that commits fraud refuses to stop and refuses to submit to the justice system? You just tell them "Shame on you" and let'em go?



Practicing medicine without a license can most certainly harm someone. It can kill them.



And if a person trusts a fraudulent medical practitioner because they talk a good game but really have no clue what they're doing? Then what? What happens when a person trusts an unlicensed medical practitioner and winds up with AIDS from unclean equipment? Or perhaps just loses a leg from gangrene from a botched surgical procedure? A mother takes her kid there because she can't afford the real hospital and the child dies from a misdiagnosis or improper treatment? You're way won't work my friend. People will take advantage of the lack or regulation and innocent people will get hurt or killed.




Of course I do but what you are advocating is bordering on anarchy. It can't work. People are the problem. "As long as it isn't hurting anyone." That's shaky ground. What about a child molester and the kid willingly participates and isn't hurt? The kid even says "I wanted it and agreed." That ok in your "As long as nobody gets hurt" society? I'm not suggesting that's your position. I'm asking. If NO... why? No one got hurt.

If you respond and I don't get back to you soon don't think I'm ignoring you. I just have a lot going on on the weekends. I'll get back to it if you reply.
Syclone was headed to Paris, France with this discussion, but you drove to Paris, Texas. Totally missing his point.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:57   #240
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If we can do it, couldn't someone else have done it on earth, in the beginning, on purpose? Still no magic needed.

Yep, that's why I consider myself an agnostic atheist. It's possible, but I have yet to see any evidence that it is MORE probable than the scenario that it happened through undesigned/unintended natural processes.
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